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Guns and Kids, what do you do?

7K views 55 replies 46 participants last post by  mbguy29577 
#1 ·
So I've read back and found one thread that deals with how to manage the balancing act of allowing for quick access to a home defense weapon and securing said weapon away from little hands. The post had many suggestions, but I'm afraid no preferred solutions.

My situation: I have one child, turns two in February, and one child on the way, due in February. One more is planned, maybe 2 years from February? :yup:

My toddler is too young to handle the responsibility of gun training and safety. It looks like I will be in the situation of having one child old enough to operate a gun accidentally, but too young to realize what he/she is doing for at least 4 more years, if not 6+. I live in the country where the police are not around the corner, and even if they were, the corner is more than a mile down the road in one direction and 3.5 in the other. My weapons are my first line of defense against any home intruders.

The assumptions I am operating under are and willing to accept:

1 - My child will not wake me up every time he enters my room. I sleep well.
2 - I am human, and therefore will not always perform things perfectly and am prone to forget things. To avoid the soap boxes, if you are perfect I don't want to hear about the responsibility of gun ownership and all that, I got it; you're just smarter than I am and I'm not giving up my guns.
3 - In combat and high pressure situations, especially immediately after being woken from sleep, motor skills and cognitive ability is often severely compromised. Ask a combat veteran.
4 - Time is of the essence.
5 - Given infinite monkeys on infinite key boards, the monkeys will eventually write every book ever written... not to compare my child to a monkey, but he will eventually figure out how to get the magazine into the weapon and load the weapon, given time and opportunity.
6 - Murphy's Law; assumption #5 will occur when I'm asleep.
7 - My child will figure out all the hiding spots in the house quicker than I will... he's proficient at this already. Hiding the gun is not satisfactory.
8 - The purpose of the retention devise is not to avoid theft, but only to prevent little hands access to the weapons.

So the question: it is statistically unlikely that I'm the only person on the forum that is in this situation or one similar, what is everyone else doing? I know this is a dilemma and not a problem and therefore may not have a preferable solution; but I'm interested in what the best compromise everyone else has come up with.

The way I see it is a balancing act between security and accessibility. What is the sweet spot? Have you ever used a weapon in home defense, or do you know someone who has? What timeframe is the weapon needed in?

Thanks for any insight,

Jason
 
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#2 ·
My safe is near my bed in my house so I use that as my retention device. While I would love to leave a gun cocked and locked on my nightstand it isnt safe with a 3 and 1 yr old. You may look into the safes that fit and bolt to drawers, gunvault makes some, if it is a handgun. By the time he is able to get on the internet, read how to operate a gun and be strong enough to do it, I would (in my house) have tried to educate the kids in a way that they would know that while you CAN do it, you shouldn't (pending a dire life or death type need)
 
#3 ·
Starting the educatioin process can never start too early, but I agree with you kids ages, safety on your part is priority number 1. My kids are older (jr high and high school) so we have had the talk about firearms on many occasions as well as showing them and training them to use and treat firearms. Started my youngest when she was in Kindergarten. I am assuming that you are talking about a handgun, so my suggestion is getting one of those small gun safes that can fit in the drawer of your night stand with the electronic keypad. It will take you longer to access the firearm than just "sitting" in you night stand. The other option is keeping the firearm up high where your llittle one(s) won't be able to reach it, but I would use the small safe in the nightstand drawer.

For a long gun, in the closet out of reach up high.
 
#38 ·
Starting the educatioin process can never start too early,
Exactly, but it is more than education and not just about guns. It is about respect and responcibility. My wife and her nine siblings grew up with loaded unsecured guns in her home. Not once, not ever, did she or any of her siblings EVER touch a gun without parental consent and/or supervision. I and my four siblings grew up with loaded unsecured guns in the home. Not once, not ever, did I or any of my siblings EVER touch a gun without parental consent and/or supervision. Our three kids now all grown adults all grew up with loaded unsecured guns in the home. Not once, not ever, NEVER EVER did any of them touch a gun without parental consent and/or supervision.

See a pattern? It is a pattern that existed in this country for nearly five hundred years. Now loaded unsecured guns are a crisis? Why is that? Or is it just the kool aid?

We have a nephew a genius around a ball, any ball, golf ball, foot ball, soccer ball made no difference any ball. In Jr High, college scouts are checking him out, He grew up with unloaded secured guns at home. After grandpa passed he and his buddy were looking through gramp's stuff stored in the garage. They found one of gramp's guns. They had never held a gun, before. They did not know how to check if it was loaded or not. They had not been taught the four rules of firearms safety. His friend shot him through and through left to right, he lived but he does not play ball any more.

Anyone can teach a toddler barely able to stand on their own not to touch a gun. Any child that has been taught respect and responsibility growing up around guns will not touch a gun without parental consent and/or supervisions. If they are smart enough to not put their peckers on hot burners they are smart enough to learn that they do not touch or play with guns ever.

But as has often happened, they will know where the gun is and how to use it if someone is raping mom or threatening their brothers or sisters.
 
#4 ·
To start with, I wouldn't bet on #5.

Here's what I would do (GA law permitting):
Mount a "key" operated lockbox out of expected (and hopefully unexpected) reach of the little ones.
Put the key on your keyring and in your pocket until you go to bed.
At night, put the key in the lockbox for quick access. Plus you'll know where your keyring is in an emergency. Remove the keys on awakening.

I have no faith in electronic locks, nor would I rely on remembering a combo in an emergency. There are many inexpensive lockboxes suitable for keeping younsters at bay. It's not a perfect solution, then neither am I.
 
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#6 ·
I agree with education being the most important thing. My kids are 4 and 2, and they fully understand that they do not ever touch guns. I also make my bedroom off limits to ensure that my edc isnt touched while im sleeping
 
#7 ·
I have 3 and 5 year old boys, and I cannot leave a unsecured firearm in the house.

I have a gun safe that stores all but 2 pistols.

Those pistols are in a Fort Knox pistol safe that sits on top of the wardrobe in our bedroom.

With practice (it takes practice like anything else) I can open the safe in the dark, half asleep
 
#36 ·
I have heard good things about these safes. I have also seen videos of cheaply made safes that children could break in to. OP, check out this video as a data point.

GUN SAFES "THE TRUTH" weaponseducation - YouTube

I believe guns should be locked up with children around. I know people have raised kids with guns accessible in their homes, but it seems risky. Children make mistakes, and parents are responsible for their child's actions. Education is important, but as others have mentioned, there should be several lines of defense. A good safe that can be accessed quickly seems like a must to me, but I also don't have kids. If you're worried about quick access to a weapon in case of an emergency, look into adding other layers of home protection. Having a dog, a home alarm system, hardening your home to make it more difficult for people to break in, and having a plan when something happens could add precious seconds to get to your gun, whether it is locked up or not. But with small children, who are curious about the world and who might do dumb things from time to time, it is important to have the weapons secured.
 
#8 ·
I've got a 2 y/o and one on the way as well. Yey for no sleep for another year!

First, I'm thinking that I can start working on the eddie eagle program with my oldest as soon as she can talk in sentences. That's not too far off.

As to securing the firearm, yeah, it needs to be physically secured. Hiding it, putting it up on a dresser, etc. - those are all negligent and bad ideas. I personally keep a handgun in a quick access safe near the bed. They are made by a bunch of vendors. Some are mechanical, some electronic keypad, some biometric. I choose one with an electronic keypad because I don't want a key for my little kids to find, and I don't want a biometric safe as I don't trust them yet. A mechanical one would have worked, but the ones I've seen are only five keys, and I know that it would only take a couple hundred tries to get into them - I did it when I was a kid. :) (What's that saying about kids being waaaay too quiet?)

The keypad ones take all of 2 seconds to open. They can be bolted to the floor or wall. Some have illuminated keys. I just leave a flashlight on top of mine.

As to responsibility, my rule is that the gun is either on me or in the safe. I am not the most neat person on the planet, but I force myself to put the gun away as soon as I take it off. It's really not hard to get into the routine. The other rule we have is that no one is allowed in our bedroom unattended. This of course applies to our child, but it also applies to anyone who comes over. They just aren't allowed in our bedroom, and the door stays closed all the time.

Cornered Cat - Table Of Contents

Check out the kids and guns section, and if you have an S/O, have them take a look as well - it's well written by someone with a good dose of common sense. :)

Oh, one other thing about the quick access safes. When you get it home, try it out and if you don't like it for whatever reason, take it back and try something else. Since they are being made by everyone, they seem to be mostly cheaply made, and you need to have confidence in them. I went through several that were pure junk before finding a satisfactory one. I will say that specialized vendor like gun vault will probably be fine out of the box.
 
#9 ·
A lock box by the bed (simple combo/key access) may very well be the best option for you until your younguns' are a little older and 'educated'. Now, I'm a fairly light sleeper but I understand your adversion to having to think/move quickly from a dead sleep, but a little practice and you can get into that box darn near in your sleep. A bigger safe will be necessary as your collection of guns, and your family, grows, but a quick-access lock-box is a good bet.

I have 4 kids, 2 outta the house, 2 still at home, and 2 grandkids........ I understand very much the safety and security your needing (both for your gun and for that of your family)
 
#11 ·
i'm assuming that at least one poster who answered your original question mentioned fast-access, locking gun boxes. what did you not like about them?

when my two sons were in the house (from 1 month to 23 years of age), my primary SD pistol resided in a Cannon Quik Safe, which could be opened in two seconds, and, being mechanical, was not dependent on batteries or electricity. the safe still works perfectly to this day.

education: my sons were told about my gun, shown where it lived, and they were allowed to see and handle it (unloaded, of course - this should go without saying, but i say it here to avoid gasps of horror from some). they were also told a few times, that if they ever found any gun, anywhere, to not touch it, and to find and tell an adult. standard Eddie Eagle stuff. well i did leave my gun out and on the bed one day, and my younger son, then about five or six, found it. bless his heart, he came running to me yelling, "daddy, daddy, you left your gun on the bed." after i finished calling myself 50 kinds of a damn fool, while going back and putting the gun back in the safe box, son got MUCH praise, with hugs and kisses, too. interestingly, i asked him a couple of weeks ago if he remembered this incident, and he said he didn't. (he's 25 now).
 
#12 ·
All are find ideas, but for the specific age group here 1-4 or 5... I don't know the measurements of your home but if you have high enough ceilings maybe putting a shelf 7-8 feet off the ground would work. personally I am 6'3 and could grab at at 8 feet rather easily. but a young child of that age wouldn't. even with a chair the likely hood is slim and add to that bringing a chair into the bedroom would not be suttle at that age. It seems not fumbling with safe combos and locks are not what you are looking for so I concluded that. When them being able to actually reach your firearm then perhaps go with the lockbox or safe. Also they sell triger locks at places like dicks, which may be worth looking into as well. Maybe even look into a new gun that has a triger locking feature built into it. Just some ideas.

Of course best option would be a safe, I would feel confident with what I said though.
 
#13 ·
Assumption #3 is what concerns me most about most safes/lock boxes. I'm concerned that in the heat of the moment and being snapped from slumber I will be fumbling with the damn locking mechanism when the perpetrator puts a bullet through me. It's the same concept for why I carry with a round in the chamber. The fewer steps/muscle memories that have to be performed to get the gun into action, the more likely it is to occur successfully. Especially under pressure. Being an infantry officer I understand the necessity to practice and develop muscle memory and rehearsals, but I also realize that simplicity is more likely to succeed than complex. Additionally I've read that an incorrect code requires you to reset the device somehow before you can open it. Seems like it takes some time. Add to that that it is typically dark while I'm sleeping, and the manual locks don't have lights, makes more room for error.

I have recently seen a lot of the biometrics (read fingerprint) gun safes that seem like the most simple to gain access to from the user's standpoint, but it seems that there is a lot of opposition to the electric locking mechanisms. People say that if the power is out then you can't get in. Do they not have a safe with a battery backup? Are the biometric scanners reliable? Has anyone had any dealings with these? How long do they take to open? It is foreseeable that you would have a home intrusion when the power is out, so I would not like a simple plug in electric locking mechanism, and it is foreseeable that batteries would die, so a battery powered one is also not preferred, but a battery backed up plug in device that charges the batteries when the power is on seems like it is as reliable as you can get... if the power fails and the batteries fail and you have a home invasion, God might be calling your number. At least it would be safe to say, you've had better luck. Do they make systems like that for a night stand? Anyone have one?

I like the lock box idea with a key, but then you have to find the key, or keep the key in it. If you keep the key in it, the child has a high probability to figure out that a turn of the key opens the safe.

Not trying to be difficult, but simply outlining my train of thought. Thank you for all the responses.

Jason
 
#15 ·
When my son was small, I never hid anything from him. Yes, most of mine were locked in my safe most of the time, but anytime he wanted to look at them, I let him. I kept insisting that these were dangerous, and he shouldn't touch unless I was there. Took him shooting with me a few times and let him see what a bullet can do. I know he was curious, and I let him satisfy that curiosity. Don't ever think you can keep something hidden from a kid. Let them look, let them shoot, and then the kids have no mystery about guns.

He never did try to look without my knowledge, and now he is my favorite shooting partner.
 
#42 ·
+1 ^^

I wholeheartedly agree with this post and have practiced the same. Others here have suggested safes and that's great unless you are like I used to be years ago and didn't have one yet. They're not cheap for sure. I do think that you're best served getting a safe for all of them but for now, wanting to have something ready for home defense, have you thought of maybe having a handgun in your room's closet, on the top shelf? You could put a simple, standard latch up high on your closet door when your firearm is in there and it would still only take a few seconds to access. Not thief proof, but at least toddler proof.

And when the kids get old enough to comprehend guns, what they are and what they can do, it's your job to teach them and sate their curiosity with a proper education. Deny them unauthorized access but never deny them an opportunity to learn as the next person's house that they go to may not be as safe as yours. The 4 kids that I have raised are all doing well. Only one left that isn't of adult age. :smile:

Do make it a priority to buy a safe though. Toddlers turn into lock picking, closet snooping, wall climbing bundles of joy before you know it. :hand5:
 
#16 ·
I will prob get all kind of finger pointing but ..... My xds is in my drawer with the mag in it but not chambered. I also have another xd mounted to the side of the bed with the mag in it but not chambered. My 8 y/o can not chamber the weapon. To stiff. My 2 y/o for sure cant rack the slide. Now with this said my older kiddos both 13 and 8 know about weapons and respect them. They always ask questions about proper handling and I show them how to handle a weapon. Notice I said how to handle it. Not shoot. First step is to respect the gun. Shooting will come later.

It is never to early to start showing them and explaining to them about guns. My 2 y/o knows it is a " no no ". That's what he calls it because that what I told him it is.

We just bought my wife a lc9. While in the gun store he was talking to the clerk and pointing to the gun case saying " no no " and shaking his head no. I think proper education and developing a respect for firearms are key in firearm safety with kids.

Now obviously when I see that they can work the gun. Trigger guards go on.

Just my own .2 cents



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
#17 ·
With kids in the home, you need two layers of protection...education AND a safe. Anything else is irresponsible (no, I don't care that "my pappy kept a loaded gun in the corner when we were little and no kids got hurt." We didn't have seat belts back then either, and we now realize how stupid that was. Kids are kids. Hence, two layers of protection.)

We have two young kids in the home, and we use a GunVault Deluxe. It has 4 buttons on top. I added white duct tape below the buttons. Even in faint light (like from the clock radio), it is easy to see them. You can also feel them in total darkness.

The safe plugs into an outlet, but also has battery backup. In addition, it has a key. It chirps when the batteries get low.

I do not like simplex mechanical locks, because you need to reset them if you enter an incorrect code. If someone bumps a button, you need to clear the lock before you enter your combination.

I do not trust biometric fingerprint readers to work with wet fingers.

This safe is large enough for three LCPs on the top shelf; and a Glock 19 (with weapon light) and a LCR on the bottom shelf. We keep it next to the bed.

It also keeps the key to the lockable steel gun cabinet in the corner of our bedroom, which keeps my other handguns and long guns.

Since you were in the military as well, you should be used to going from deep sleep to "red alert" fairly quickly. :smile: I would not worry about not being able to open the safe under stress. Practice, and you'll be fine.

Hope this helps. Good luck!
 
#18 ·
Thanks for the input. Which GunVault Deluxe do you have, there are several. I don't see on the webpage where it mentions that it plugs into the wall, only about the battery power. I'll have to read more carefully.

Also, my brother is about to go to the 10th MTN as an FA 2LT, going to Drum if I remember correctly. Any advice to him?

Thanks,

Jason
 
#19 ·
Ours is older, but it looks to be like the GV2000D model "multivault deluxe."

Ahhh...Ft Drum. Where there are only two seasons - Independence Day, and Winter. :lol:

Advice? Get a snow blower, shovels...and beware the snow pigs!
 
#20 ·
I dont claim to be an expert on kids but I have some experience. The parents keeping their guns up high know what they are doing, Ive seen it mentioned not to keep ladders around. I just want to emphasize this. Children, even at young ages are very smart. A freinds kid (4 at the time) had no trouble with deadbolts on doors but he also had no hesitation to pull a chair up and go for the lock we installed high up on the door. Eventualy we had to install a battery operated alarm on the door.
 
#21 ·


A key lock is useless in the dark. Google "Gunvault Problems" and you will see the issues people have are across the board on many models. There are several recent videos showing how easy most of the inexpensive electronic handgun safes can be opened, but that's more of an issue with older kids or thieves. If you want to stay away from electronics all together, it's hard to beat a push-button mechanical lock as it is easily opened by feel in complete darkness. As with anything a little practice and it's second nature to you. As mentioned earlier, if you need to clear an incorrect code you just turn the knob 1/4" counterclockwise and re-pounch the code. Takes about 1/2 second to clear if a mistake is made. You should be able to open it and have your gun in 3 or 4 seconds in the dark. If that's not fast enough for you, then you need to look at what other security you can improve in your home. No batteries, scanners, electricity or flimsey sheetmetal. Holstered, so the trigger is never exposed when reaching for your gun and it is presented to you in the same place evey time. Other manufacturers that use a similar lock are Vline and Fort Knox with lighter gauge boxes that you lay your gun in. I commend you in your efforts to find what's right for you and will help keep your kids safe. Hiding a gun up high is just waiting for something bad to happen in my opinion.
 
#22 ·
First- Lock your bedroom door!
If you are concerned about little ones wondering into your room in the middle of the night, LOCK the door!


(As soon as our kids moved to their own rooms, my wife & I began closing & locking our bedroom door. A baby monitor helped us keep tabs of things.)


Second-
Get a bedside safe. There are many to choose from; so I know you can find one that will suit your needs. (You can mount one inside a draw & "childproof the drawer.)

Third-
Since you are a "good" sleeper, you may need a early warning system of some kind. Install an Alarm System and/or get a dog. Both will give you a little extra time in the event of an emergency.

-
 
#23 ·
Thank you for the suggestions. As far as locking the door, my wife enjoys having my son in the bedroom in the morning, so that's not going to work. She's a stay at home mom, and I work crazy hours, so many times she is trying to sneak in a few extra minutes of sleep with my son in the bed and I'm still out like a light.

I'm fairly convinced that a bed side safe is the way to go, just wondering which safe is going to best suit me. What safe do you recommend? Does anyone know a good safe that charges while plugged in and has a battery backup?

As far as your third suggestion, I have 3 dogs, all large. They stay outside, but bark if anything is amiss in the night.

Jason
 
#24 ·
I'm in the same boat, 2 very young kids. Education and a safe are your best bets. I have a safe mounted high on a shelf, in a closet next to my side of the bed. It has an electronic keypad and an override backup key. More for keeping little hands out rather than thieves, like many have mentioned. Also have a med-large sized dog to buy extra time and provide a warning. I'm a light sleeper though, and have thought about a bedside holster to utilize while I'm home. Most importantly in all this, my kids have been educated about guns, Dads closet is a no-no, and understand that dead is forever...guns aren't toys. The other side of that is to not make it seem so taboo..they also understand why I have them. My son says, "because you love us and want to protect us if a bad guy comes."

Sounds like your headed down the right road. Get a safe, educate, and listen for the pups!
 
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#25 ·
Just my two cents. I have two 3 year old boys, a 1.5 year old little girl, and a Mossberg 500. I have a low bed and keep the shotgun right under where I sleep. Unfortunately I can't feel comfortable keeping it loaded and ready for "go-time." I do have a saddle for my shells on the weapon for atleast a fighting chance for quick loading. I think Kathy Jackson on CorneredCat.com gives some of the best advice for dealing with children and firearms. My biggest success has been taking the allure out of the weapon for the children. The boys are three and already understand what it means when I check with my fingers and eyes to see if the weapon is loaded before I present it to them to explore. They are more afraid than curious now because I've let them see me shoot it (At evil dogs and such) and know what the end result of pulling the trigger is. When they are curious I take the time to let them see me check the chamber numerous times for safety and hold it while I let them touch it (Pointing it at a safe backstop of course). Does it guarantee 100% that no accident will happen? Certainly not, which is why I don't keep it loaded and don't let the kids in my room. However, the old saying, "The best safety is the one between your ears," is true and should be installed between the ears of your little ones even if you aren't sure whether or not they understand. Psychologists say that children are pretty much cemented into who they are going to be by age 7, so the best time to start ingraining gun safety is right NOW. It's not fool proof, but it's the best strategy.
 
#26 ·
Great post. You've obviously thought a lot about this and you demonstrate clear thinking and a desire to problem solve. My two pieces of advice are:

1. Always carry when around the kids. Use a holster with some kind of retention. This should accomplish several things: first, they will get used to seeing you carrying a gun; second, the gun will always be under your control.

2. If you can't carry, or when you are asleep, put the gun in a safe with a touch code so you can have fast access to it if necessary.
 
#27 ·
For heavy sleepers

For heavy sleepers,
I keep my bedroom door open so I can hear what's going on in the rest of the house. This is especially important if you have kids in the house.

In addition to any combination of suggestions made here...
put an infrared beam annunciator (old school) or motion detector annunciator, across the door of your bedroom. A 'beam' unit can isolate the field of view so that a dog won't trigger it (when mounted high enough) but a child (taller than the dog) will. I was thinking old school units that bounce off a reflector but this newer version came up on google. http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/Amseco_EBP-401.pdf

If there is no dog then this will do and is cheaper to boot. Personal Security Motion Sensing Alarm with Keypad Activation-51209 at The Home Depot
There are simpler units with no keypad, this is just what I found quick as get ready for work. You can also get these units in remote configurations to set boundaries anywhere in the house you wish. Happy hunting.
 
#28 ·
I have a nine yr old boy who shoots with me, and a 6 yr old girl who will be starting this year. when they were younger they used to bug me to see all my guns. i used to say no. then one day while conversing with someone at the range , they told me to just show them, let them handle them (unloaded of course) and they won't be so curious. it worked. i gave them all a safety lesson. all the do's and don'ts. And after that, all the mystery and curiosity was gone. Now my son loves to shoot with me, but he and my daughter couldn't care less about seeing, touching or handling them. Unless we're at the range. Take the mystery out of firearms along with education is the key. All of this said, my pistols are in a Gun Vault next to my bed. My rifles are in locked cases under the bed, with ammo in the safe.
 
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