This is a discussion on Confrontation in Durham, NC today. within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; He stated he had no gun. There was no threat made. He didn't say he was going to beat you or stab you. He didn't ...
He stated he had no gun. There was no threat made. He didn't say he was going to beat you or stab you.
He didn't present a weapon.
If it happened as described I think you would be in a big heap of trouble, depending on whether you
merely pointed at him or actually shot him.
Some suggestions for you---You need to do some reading: In the Gravest Extreme, The Gift of Fear,
Little Black Book of Violence, Verbal Judo. You also need to consider carrying pepper as an alternative to lethal force, and consider learning some H2H self defense. As others said, you certainly need to learn the laws in your state
regarding lawful and unlawful use of lethal force.
There was absolutely no reason for you to react as you did either to the first question or to the subsequent
non-threat of a threat. You can remain civil even while being cautious.
If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
"A hyphenated American is not an American at all.
Americanism is a matter of the spirit and of the soul.
Our allegiance must be purely to the United States.
We must unsparingly condemn any man who holds any other allegiance."
Theodore Roosevelt... 1915
Well the homeless guy asked a yes or no question and the OP gave him a "nope". The homeless guy took offense at the answer by retaliating verbally and escalated the situation as well.
I think we all know the guy is trying to mooch a few bucks off of you and he needs you to pause so he can get his story across to you. At least that's how it has been tried on me.
However, I wouldn't care to give a "nope" answer like that, it could easily complicate my life, I often think of that hidden knife within 20 feet of me. I keep walking, and just say something like, " Sorry I'm not from around here" or " I'm running late", or " no hablo ingles".
Simply put, I think the safest thing is keep moving and neutralize the conversation without being offensive.
Helpful hints on pushing back and strengthening the 2A:
It seems like Ive had that same conversation with a drunk woman at a gas station, She starts with "Can you help me out?" and when I say no she starts into a tirade about rich white people.... and then turns to the guy at the next pump who says "I cant help you either" So she grabs a window squeegee and flings it at his car! Had she been a little bigger and a little less drunk she could have been a threat! Had she had a bat instead of a squeegee she could have done some damage, to him and his car! I don't think reaching back into his car to retrieve his gun was the worst move for the OP. Getting the girlfriend back into the car and leaving was probably smarter tho. DR
We stopped at our favorite burger joint to get something to eat...... myself and my 2 grandkids. A guy walking across the small parking lot asked me if I would give him some money, and I said "no".... and continued to shut the door and lock the car. I turned to go inside.... and he got in my pathway ... about 8 ft from me.
He continued to push ..... "give me some money, man' ...... I continued to tell him 'no' and telling him 'we're going inside now' ......... then .... he decided to turn it into a robbery...... " You ARE going to give me ALL OF your MONEY " ..... while cussing me and reaching into his pocket .... where I saw the outline of a knife. He kept repeating ... angrily.... "YOU ARE going to give me your money" ! ! !
Now, according to you guys.... I just ignore him and walk on ?
I stepped back into a stance, put my hand on my cc gun under my shirt (not visible) and told him........ to keep his hands in his pocket, and if it came out of his pocket .... "You are going to have a very bad day". He gave me a long look but kept his hand in his pocket, then he started calling me every name he could .... in extreme anger.... and back tracked and walked away.... cussing me the entire time.
The "just igrore them and walk away" .... doesn't work around here. They will get right up in your face --- literally- --- and won't back off of you, and often will get angry, more pushy, and more demanding.
I think you left a "he" out of your sentence ....... in the "asked if we had a problem" ..... .....(1) it either should be "he asked if we had a problem" ..... (2) or "we asked him if he had a problem" . You aren't clear who asked that question.
If that was "him" asking the question..... I would have answered .. 'not at this point' and walked on into the restaurant. If my normal is to pull out my gun from my car and holster it before going into the restaurant, I wouldn't have changed that at all.
To go a bit further.... couple months ago .... 2 homeless men were walking towards 2 men walking from one of their houses to a nearby girlfriends house. One of the homeless people asked them for some "money" , and they answered "no". Witnesses say here were no other words passed, the homeless guy pulled out a knife and began stabbing the guy who said "no" ....... and killed him. The other one was wounded and cut when he tried to stop him, and realizing he might be next.... ran across the street for help and to call police.
A homeless man, frequently went to a nearby convenience store and would ask people for money. One day, he walked up and was milling around outside (according to people going inside) was mumbling things to himself. He then walked into the convenience store and right up to the cash register..... pulled out a revolver and shot the just "18" yr old clerk in the head killing him. The homeless man, was having hallucinations and a schizophrenic.
It was the 18 yr olds last day of working there, before starting what was his dream job as a mechanic.
You never know, assume nothing, stay armed or arm yourself..... keep good situational awareness..... and never let them get close to you where they can pull a knife and start slicing and dicing you.
the guy threatened him.... and he could not know whether the man meant it, had the means to do it, or might attack them..... when in doubt take the safest approach ..... one may be to get right back in the car and lock the doors. ...... while calling 911 and telling them that you have someone there threatening you.
I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."
OK, let me chime in. We have a guy who "appears" to be homeless. No one knows if he is, but obviously, the OP thought he was, probably by the man's demeanor and appearance. If, the man was a homeless person, it does not mean that he was a panhandler trying to get money from the OP. What if this "homeless" man was a Vet suffering from some type of mental illness (e.g. PTSD) living in poverty and needed to go to the the Durham VA Med Ctr (where I go for my medical appts) and just wanted to ask where the Durham VA was located? We don't know. Right?
Also, as we know, about 70% of communication is non-verbal (e.g gestures and tone). So, a simple "nope" may come across as disrespectful or degrading. Now, I'm not saying that the OP was being disrespectful or degrading to this man, but maybe that's the way he came across.
So, with that said, I have dealt with a lot of actual homeless people and panhandlers due to the nature of my previous job. Yes, some may be violent and threatening, but most are not. In this case, I would've let the man ask the question and I would politely answer. If the man asks me for money I would tactfully tell him "sorry, but I can't." Many times I have gotten a "thank you and God bless you" from the panhandler after I turn them down. If we treat panhandlers and homeless people with dignity we can avoid an angry reaction from them. BTW, I never give money to panhandlers, because I prefer to donate to the shelters.
Duty, Honor, Country...MEDIC!!!
¡Cuánto duele crecer, cuan hondo es el dolor de alzarse en puntillas y observar con temblores de angustia, esa cosa tremenda, que es la vida del hombre! - René Marqués
As opposed to putting holes in him? Maybe.He continued to push ..... "give me some money, man' ...... I continued to tell him 'no' and telling him 'we're going inside now' ......... then .... he decided to turn it into a robbery...... " You ARE going to give me ALL OF your MONEY " ..... while cussing me and reaching into his pocket .... where I saw the outline of a knife. He kept repeating ... angrily.... "YOU ARE going to give me your money" ! ! !
Now, according to you guys.... I just ignore him and walk on ?
Of course when a pushy panhandler becomes an armed robber the price of poker goes up for him. As described in the OP that doesn't appear to have been the case.
Maybe I've been lucky but I have so far been able to out think and out maneuver these types without going for the gun or threatening to.
Guns are made to solve problems, not to create bigger ones.
Durham is a mean town and I left that immediate area a few years ago. I'll say this about the probable aftermath of that episode as you described it; the good people from Durham that would have made up the jury would have roasted you. Nobody can get a break in that town regardless of which side of town they come from. Durham is just a mistake of man.
What if the Hokey Pokey IS what it's all about?
"Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God." - Benjamin Franklin
"Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn." - C.S. Lewis
2. Could mean a troll
3. Some one with a higher count would know not to admit to escalating actions as they would know that people on the forum will call them out
Aim referring to single digit or really low double digit post count
By low count I am refer
1. I was stepping out of my car at the time, the gun was will within reach and my door wasn't closed at the time.
2. This is Durham, NC...we have one of the highest rates of crime against white people known to man
3. I have been in a similar situation in Lake Worth, Florida where one person asked for money but it was a complete setup to rob me, sadly they were successful because I wasn't armed at the time and from then on don't take chances.
4. As mentioned above, if you choose to converse with said individual and not take notice to your surroundings you could be opening yourself up to an attack by multiple individuals.
5. This wasn't your "typical" homeless individual that is frail. This individual was strung up on something and those individuals are the most prone to violence...this I know from growing up in the ghettos of Florida and seeing first hand what a cracked out/methed out person can do without provocation. The world has a different perspective if you grew up in small town USA or the suburbs. Where I grew up the lesser armed were mugged, shot, stabbed or gang beaten and then robbed. Thus, when I encounter similar individuals I know what they are capable of
6. Hand-to-Hand combat, sure, if you're willing to take the bet the person won't bite you and isn't infected with some virus of which there is no cure. Whoever said that...YOU can take the chance, HIV/AIDs and the plethora of other untreatable diseases isn't worth trying to beat the amped up worthless vagrant into submission.
7. As stated from #1, I didn't "go back" to my weapon and remained right at my vehicle the entire time (think, Castle Doctrine).
All in all, from my experience of being mugged and being in Durham, NC (where even the cops are arrested for committing crimes on a frequent basis) I wouldn't choose differently. My only mistake was not just keeping it on me; however, the handle of the gun was digging into the leather of my car so I removed it so I didn't tear into a leather seat that would cost more to repair than the gun is worth.
There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.
The OP mentioned being at a restaurant, most of which serve alcohol making it a criminal protection zone in NC. Leaving his gun in the car would have been correct, justifying his need to go back for it. However, he probably should have either driven away or called the cops to remove the bum instead trying to go into the restaurant.
Sent via mental telepathy