Confrontation in Durham, NC today. - Page 3

Confrontation in Durham, NC today.

This is a discussion on Confrontation in Durham, NC today. within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; My 2 cents: The OP mentions "think Castle Doctrine" when I do not know how that applies if he is not in his vehicle (I ...

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Thread: Confrontation in Durham, NC today.

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    My 2 cents:

    The OP mentions "think Castle Doctrine" when I do not know how that applies if he is not in his vehicle (I do not know the laws about NC). Second, just a observation from your posts and what has happened to you:
    I was waiting for him to attempt to put his hands where I couldn't see them or start towards me because he would have experienced all to fast the mozambique drill
    I am glad you did not have to shoot the unarmed man because it sounds like you would have if you lost sight of his hands. Sounds to me like you were itching for or looking for a reason to shoot.

    Just my humble opinion. Either way I think it was handled badly. And, out of curiosity...if the area you are in is so bad, why on earth did you let your GF go check on the reseraunt alone?
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  2. #32
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    Could NOT agree more. Ego obviously trumped logic.
    Disagree, though it comes down to the details of the situation.

    If as described, that the car door was opened, the threat of death was flung verbally, the assailant was nearing contact distances, and that's the moment the victim of the assault realizes he's forgotten/left his weaponry elsewhere, IMO it hardly seems a bad thing to prepare for arming oneself. If not at that moment, then when is he supposed to ensure he has the capability of withstanding the very probable next step of the assailant ... after he's grappling with the one who just wished him dead? Really?

    The devil's in the details, of course. Depends heavily on how strongly the claim of willingness to commit murder was believed, how close the assailant was. Are you willing to bet your life on all of those things being meaningless worry, having just had someone claim he'd be willing to murder you? If utterly believable, then it seems to me that situation would instill a legitimate and fully-justifiable fear of threat of death or crippling injury, the basic standard in the statutes in many states.
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  3. #33
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Disagree, though it comes down to the details of the situation.

    If as described, that the car door was opened, the threat of death was flung verbally, the assailant was nearing contact distances, and that's the moment the victim of the assault realizes he's forgotten/left his weaponry elsewhere, IMO it hardly seems a bad thing to prepare for arming oneself. If not at that moment, then when is he supposed to ensure he has the capability of withstanding the very probable next step of the assailant ... after he's grappling with the one who just wished him dead? Really?

    The devil's in the details, of course. Depends heavily on how strongly the claim of willingness to commit murder was believed, how close the assailant was. Are you willing to bet your life on all of those things being meaningless worry, having just had someone claim he'd be willing to murder you? If utterly believable, then it seems to me that situation would instill a legitimate and fully-justifiable fear of threat of death or crippling injury, the basic standard in the statutes in many states.
    Actually the only threat to kill the OP was this:
    If I had a gun I would shoot your ass right now".
    It was an empty threat and the BG(?) said he had no gun. If anything it sounded like he wanted suicide by CCP holder Now, I am not minimizing what COULD have happened. But I think he just handled it flat out wrong.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Actually the only threat to kill the OP was this:

    If I had a gun I would shoot your ass right now".
    It was an empty threat and the BG(?) said he had no gun.
    Who's to say it was an "empty" threat? Who's to say he actually wasn't armed? He's the assailant, and he's to be utterly and blindly trusted and taken at his word during the assailing ... right?

    The devil's in the details. Of course it's the totality of circumstances that constitutes the full and entire threat, and that includes proximity, demeanor, level of aggressiveness/agitation displayed, that "wildness" in the eyes that we've all seen on occasion. Granted, that if a person truly believes claims of willingness to kill utterly empty and unsupported by any other factors, then anything other than walking away might seem unwarranted. Can't know without being there, seeing/experiencing those same circumstances.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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  5. #35
    Member Array pilgrimshooter's Avatar
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    I just want to add, while I believe this was not handled in the best way, I've also not had to face a situation like this. It's easy to play monday morning quarterback, but who am I to say how I would react in the same situation.
    Don't bring a knife to a gun fight...unless it's strapped to a gun.

  6. #36
    Member Array NCMedic8617's Avatar
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    Re: Confrontation in Durham, NC today.

    I've followed the thread for a little while now...
    My first thoughts were that there's a lot of bias, prejudice and undertone to the whole story.
    Every unknown contact is a threat until deemed not.
    Poor situational awareness, The significant other was out of the car prior to the OP in what he stated was a known bad area.
    A potential threat was recognized, he retreats to the vehicle, gets a weapon, re engaged and antagonized the subject, escalating the situation.
    The OP states that he has been robbed before, based on the attitude of the posts, probably will be robbed again, he gave away the advantage of concealed carry, now the potential threat realizes the OP is now armed and would most likely respond according.
    Returning to the original interaction, a "Nope" is basically the same as saying "F You" on the streets, the whole thing could have been descalated by letting him ask what he wants to ask with keeping distance between, then breaking contact. "Sorry man.. I can't I don't, know", etc go a lot further than nope.
    There was no mention of if the police were called or not either


    Sent from this... Using that...
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  7. #37
    Distinguished Member Array dangerranger's Avatar
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    After rereading the original post I don't see where the OP broke off and then resumed the argument. The way I read it The OP was still in his car door. And allowing the man into his space even by continuing the conversation would have been worse. I think most are more bothered by the reference to the Mozambique drill. DR

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array darbo's Avatar
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    Read OP's 2nd post #28. It might clarify some things.

  9. #39
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    I just try to keep in mind that I dont wanna wind up in prison with them kind of people, Its no picnic in there. Somebody mentioned OC or Pepper spray , I like to have that with me also as a tool. Im not gonna judge as I have made a mistakes or two, but I always keep in mind that this is no game, once you shoot you better have a real good reason or you will find yourself in a ton of trouble money wise and prison, especially with you being white and the other guy black. Media feeds off of that stuff.. Id rather get back in my car and take a ride around the block. Its hard sometimes on the Ego, but a way better alternative because once you cool down, Its like it never happened. If you would have shot an unarmed subject, tough times ahead..
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  10. #40
    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    Having re-read the OP & post #28 I realized I was mistakenly filling in some of my own imagined details. I apologize as my "ego trumped logic" comment may have been an overstatement. But let me ask another question, if the verbal threat was taken seriously enough to require the OP to arm himself & then verbally re-engage ("do we have a problem?") with the vagrant, why wouldn't it be safer & easier just to sit back down in the car, lock the doors & call 911? Especially if my girlfriend was along. IMHO, even the justified escalation a tense situation is simply bad judgement & baiting for more trouble. Again, IMHO, part of the responsibility of concealed carry is the responsibility of keeping a cool head even when you (we) have every excuse NOT TO! I'm not looking for instances where my CCW-related actions are merely justified. I'm personally going to any/all extremes possible to avoid CCW-related actions while still maintaining my safety. A locked car door solves the whole problem without bringing my handgun into the mix at all.
    There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

  11. #41
    Member Array iguanadon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    The OP mentioned being at a restaurant, most of which serve alcohol making it a criminal protection zone in NC. Leaving his gun in the car would have been correct, justifying his need to go back for it. However, he probably should have either driven away or called the cops to remove the bum instead trying to go into the restaurant.
    "criminal protection zone"... I like that term...
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  12. #42
    Member Array NCMedic8617's Avatar
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    Re: Confrontation in Durham, NC today.

    It also makes a good point that after such a incident it is important to notify the appropriate law enforcement agencies such as it is to have your portion of the story reported first, especially if you reverse the roles.
    "Officer, I just tried to ask this guy what time it was, he started yelling at me, went to his car and got a gun, and threatened me"

    Sent from this... Using that...

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertPA View Post
    3. I have been in a similar situation in Lake Worth, Florida where one person asked for money but it was a complete setup to rob me, sadly they were successful because I wasn't armed at the time and from then on don't take chances.

    As I said earlier, you really need to attend a NC concealed carry class and if you have already taken it, REVIEW it.

    You CAN NOT use deadly force because of past violence. History with someone other than the person involved has no bearing on the use of deadly force in the instance you related.


    6. Hand-to-Hand combat, sure, if you're willing to take the bet the person won't bite you and isn't infected with some virus of which there is no cure. Whoever said that...YOU can take the chance, HIV/AIDs and the plethora of other untreatable diseases isn't worth trying to beat the amped up worthless vagrant into submission.
    This is the same as saying you should be able to shoot any attacker even if they have no visible weapon since they could possibly "infect" you. Once again, you can not use deadly force for an attack that has the possibility of a hidden deadly threat. All attacks could be said to have this same possible threat.

    7. As stated from #1, I didn't "go back" to my weapon and remained right at my vehicle the entire time (think, Castle Doctrine).
    You need to talk to an instructor of the CHP course or lawyer and learn the definition of the Castle Doctrine. You can not retreat to your car and stand there and be justified under the castle doctrine for the use of deadly force. The castle doctrine addresses the use of deadly force based on a forcible entry. Unless the person that approached you tried to break into or force their way into your vehicle while you were inside the castle doctrine would not apply here.

    Here are the stipulations directly from the statute NC GS 14-51.2

    (b) The lawful occupant of a home, motor vehicle, or workplace is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily harm to another if both of the following apply:

    (1) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a home, motor vehicle, or workplace, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the home, motor vehicle, or workplace.

    (2) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.


    You being approached by a panhandler does not meet these requirements.


    All in all, from my experience of being mugged and being in Durham, NC (where even the cops are arrested for committing crimes on a frequent basis) I wouldn't choose differently. My only mistake was not just keeping it on me; however, the handle of the gun was digging into the leather of my car so I removed it so I didn't tear into a leather seat that would cost more to repair than the gun is worth.
    If you are this concerned, you need to also rethink another point, why was your wife not with you? Why was she separated from you if you have such a major concern for your safety in this area?

    Please take this in the spirit it was given, you need to revisit your training on NC law and think about adding some other forms of self defense other than a firearm to fill the gaps in your force continuum and work on your situational awareness.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertPA View Post
    While in Durham an black male, obviously homeless, asked me if he could ask a question and my response was "nope". He then says "NOPE! If I had a gun I would shoot your ass right now".

    Given that I don't take very kindly to being threatened I reached back into my car and grabbed by gun (we were going into a restaurant) and holstered the weapon and asked if we had a problem. He then begins to rant about "I'll beat your ass you cracker (blah blah all the typical ant-white racial slurs that is typical). I had my hand upon my holstered Ruger SR9c and advised him to keep moving. He would occasionally stop and place his hands out and say "Go ahead and shoot me you scared ass cracker, I ain't got nothing to live for" followed by "You better not leave your car alone, *****". Eventually my girlfriend walks back to inform me the place was closed and I advised her to get into the car and I backed up and kept my firearm ready and then drove away.

    So, case in point, you NEVER know when you need your weapon. I was waiting for him to attempt to put his hands where I couldn't see them or start towards me because he would have experienced all to fast the mozambique drill
    And the chances are we would be reading a newspaper article titled: "Unarmed man shot outside of (fill in the blank)."
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  15. #45
    Member Array steffen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Who's to say it was an "empty" threat? Who's to say he actually wasn't armed? He's the assailant, and he's to be utterly and blindly trusted and taken at his word during the assailing ... right?

    The devil's in the details. Of course it's the totality of circumstances that constitutes the full and entire threat, and that includes proximity, demeanor, level of aggressiveness/agitation displayed, that "wildness" in the eyes that we've all seen on occasion. Granted, that if a person truly believes claims of willingness to kill utterly empty and unsupported by any other factors, then anything other than walking away might seem unwarranted. Can't know without being there, seeing/experiencing those same circumstances.
    I have to 2nd the part in bold. If I hear "I'm not armed," I immediately assume the opposite until I'm able to determine otherwise. If I hear "I'm armed," I immediately assume its true until I'm able to determine otherwise.

    The main issue from the OP was the lack of SA that led to him finding himself in the situation. There is no way to dispute that.
    It sounds like the BG was already way to close, so IMO the main objective was to de-escalate and escape from the situation. I may not agree with the OP's method, but he accomplished that objective and ultimately got himself and his girl out of there without being harmed. We can argue all day about what should-have or shouldn't-have been done, but we're not going to get anywhere.
    Ksgunner likes this.

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