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OC vs brandishing at your door

4K views 39 replies 27 participants last post by  dukalmighty 
#1 ·
Sorry if this has been answered, a search for open carry and brandishing turned up a lot of results.

Lets say you have a salesman come to your door and you are open carrying, how does that differ from brandishing? What if you rest your hand on it while talking? (Telling to leave)

Please be gentle, I am new to all of this.
Thanks
 
#5 ·
Have to agree with the other posts. Nothing wrong with open carrying in your own home (at least in my state) but I teach don't even touch your gun unless your life or your loved ones life is in grave danger. I know a Sheriff who would get so mad if his deputies put their hands on their guns in non threatening situations.
 
#6 ·
Let's say you have a salesman come to your door...
Don't open the door!

The definition of brandishing varies by state.
True. Many states, like mine, don't have the word "brandish" in the statutes, but in those states that do, most likely a holstered gun is not included in the definition. Grabbing your gun, even a holstered gun, is felonious menacing in my state, and probably a similar offense in others.
 
#7 ·
If you are in your own home and open carry out of habit then I don't see how there is anything wrong with that. Putting your hand on the gun and insisting the salesman leave does not seem at all appropriate, actually it seems like a threat to a man who is just doing his job and the only thing he has done to you is possibly annoy you. Not a good idea.

Goose
 
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#8 ·
Yea, read the local laws. As others have stated, they vary from state to state. Why put your hand on your gun to tell a salesmen to leave? Why not a "no thank you"? Even say it a few different times to get through his sales tactic. When I'm done listening, I usually say "No thanks, I'm really not interested and I'd hate to waste your time." This usually gets the point across and they leave without issue. Generally, even salesmen are just trying to earn a living.
 
#9 ·
Many times people such as peace officers can make a habit out of resting their hands on objects worn on the belt. It is both tactical and kinda natural, like folding your arms. I do this all the time without even thinking. Now, I'm not assuming a firing grip on the piece, but the heel of my hand may be resting on the front edge of the holster, and the left resting on the OC pouch.

But to intentional place your hand on the piece like you are going to break leather with menacing expressions and voice tones is a different story.

If you don't know them, just don't open the door.

Another good reason for a j frame in your pocket if you are compelled to open it.
 
#15 ·
Signs don't always work, especially in the case of a salesman that isn't too bright. True story (and rather funny IMO)... Several years ago a salesman came into a business owned by my friend's dad. My buddy's dad interrupted his spiel by asking him if he saw the "No Solicitors" sign on the door. The guy's response: "Yeah, I saw it, but I'm not a solicitor. I'm just a peddler."

Anyway, either don't answer the door or just tell the salesman you're not interested in whatever he is selling. Resting your hand on your gun while talking to them is probably a bad idea that could land you in a heap of trouble depending on whether or not the salesman perceived it as a threat.
 
#11 ·
Lets say you have a salesman come to your door and you are open carrying, how does that differ from brandishing?
Mere carrying isn't brandishing, which is a distinct and overt act of displaying/waving to unjustifiably intimidate, menace or threaten another. Though, the non-standard definitions used by some states do indeed differ from the normal, everyday definition of the word.

As to whether it'll be taken as such in your own state, know your state's statutes, and appreciate the case law's interpretations of such situations. It's not always straightforward.

What if you rest your hand on it while talking? (Telling to leave)
If there's no threat that provoked legitimate concern by the carrier, then I'd say such an action would be unjustified and absolutely qualifies as brandishing/menacing. Depends on the specific circumstances, what threat is being created by the person, what steps the carrier is taking to defend against the threat, and whether those actions are reasonable.

Now, every situation's different. If a person has stepped up to the door to inquire about possible interest in buying something, that's hardly a threat. If that person fails to "get the point" and realize I'm wanting him to leave without a sale, then that's merely his lack of mental quickness and/or stubbornness. But unless it goes beyond mere reticence to leave, if it goes to the point where the visitor's actions get disconcerting to the point I'm legitimately fearing violence is coming, then that's where everything begins to change. It'll all come down to the specifics.

If "new" to all of this, appreciate the use of the word "reasonable" in the use-of-force statutes. It's important to realize that can believe all you want at the time, but in order for others to later deem those actions credible and justifiable then those actions need to be seen as reasonable in their eyes. IOW, don't simply think you can get everyone to agree you were reasonable by grabbing the butt-end of your gun each time you'd prefer a salesman leave your doorstep, for no other reason that you no longer wanted to speak to the guy.
 
#14 ·
By resting a hand on the gun I did not mean using that as a way to leave. Like the post above, like a habit of putting hand on hip, in pocket etc. not as a scare tactic.
Which is fine, so far as that goes. But realize that claims and accusations can be made, whether or not your intention was to intimidate. Something to keep in mind, when in a situation where brandishing/menacing could be misconstrued from otherwise normal actions by you.
 
#19 ·
Yes, First off, I suggest researching the laws of your state, (Minnesota ?) on brandishing. I would think open carry in your home , your private dwelling, would be legal. Perhaps 'blade' your body so your holstered weapon is visable to the person @ your door. Cross your arms over your chest, away from your weapon. I think the person @ your door would probably exit and go on to the next hand out.

Years ago, I lived in Seattle, Washington, for a while. I answered the door once with the TV remote in my hand. The limp toasts at the door fell to the ground , waving their hands and screaming "he has a gun" ... I was never bothered again. I felt guilty and almost gave them $$.

Just saying.
 
#20 ·
It varies from state to state, but brandishing involves a "threatening" action. It's difficult to prove brandishing with a holstered firearm. In FL there is no "brandishing" law persay, but it would have to include a threatening "use," which is defined as having the firearm "in hand." Holstered is not in hand.
 
#29 ·
No I have not taken a course yet. I found where I want to do it but my wife and I can't line up schedules to do it together until January. My father in law is a Leo and I have been taking basic lessons from him right now. I first got into this as a hobby for range time etc but after reading everything on here it has changed the way I think and we will be getting our carry permit as stated above.
 
#24 ·
A couple thoughts...

Here in Michigan the law on brandishing has been written pretty clearly and backed up with AG opinions. So, as long as it stays in the holster you're pretty safe. I agree with others; if your hand touches the gun, that kind of changes things. Interestingly, there has also recently been a big case concerning open carry of a rifle in Birmingham which established that if it's just being carried, on a sling for example, that's not brandishing either.

Also, you might want to consider if you want people to know you have firearms in the house. The salesman might be an evildoer "interviewing" potential home invasion victims (I've personally seen this happen on more than one occasion). Does knowing you have a gun on you decrease the chance that he'll try it when you're home? Probably. Does it increase the chance he'll watch the house and try to enter when you're not home, hoping to find some guns? Maybe. Who knows, really, and there will be lots of thoughts on this issue from other forum members, but it's something to consider as you mull all this over.

Best wishes,

Gav
 
#30 ·
Not all salesmen at your door, are salesmen either.

Personally, if I don't know them.... I don't answer the door, I have no need to talk to them at all.
 
#32 ·
This post made me remember the guy across the street when I was growing up. He answered the door with his de-miled M3 Grease Gun slung across his chest. I don't think the Fuller Brush man ever stopped there again!
 
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#36 ·
Honest to jeebus, one of these days I'm going to design, manufacture and market an "ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY NO SOLICITING WHATSOEVER - DO YOU UNDERSTAND?" sign. And I probably won't sell any.

I'll share one thing that I'm not even sure how to feel about --

Good lord, I used to get "D's" coming by during campaign season. I mean every other day. Ignored the "No Solicitation" signs, of course. But one day, my wife puts one of those U.S. ARMY stickers in one of the windows (for our son) and I figured what the heck, I'll put one of my NRA Endowment stickers next to it.

The visits from the "D's" stopped - cold. I'd actually see them come up the driveway, take a look at the window and turn around.
 
#38 ·
Honest to jeebus, one of these days I'm going to design, manufacture and market an "ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY NO SOLICITING WHATSOEVER - DO YOU UNDERSTAND?" sign. And I probably won't sell any.
Overseas, I saw many (most) homes in the more-upscale districts have larger "compounds", with tall/thick surrounding walls (topped with razor wire and/or glass shards embedded in concrete), a good space between the walls and the home, and dogs roaming freely in the space. Entry was via electronic gate access, or via invitation only. The message was clear: stay out ... period ... and that means you.

Short of that sort of thing, pretty signs won't keep out the brazen or the criminal. Only effective barriers will.
 
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