I called Second Chance regarding a vest suitable for a full time teacher - not good! - Page 3

I called Second Chance regarding a vest suitable for a full time teacher - not good!

This is a discussion on I called Second Chance regarding a vest suitable for a full time teacher - not good! within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Tangle, maybe you misconstrued a couple of my posts. I am in no way, advocating not wearing body armor. Not at all. Merely pointing out ...

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  1. #31
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    Tangle, maybe you misconstrued a couple of my posts. I am in no way, advocating not wearing body armor. Not at all. Merely pointing out the expense. It's been a while since I've shopped for body armor so, I'm sure you may be able to acquire some for cheaper than I mentioned. The main point I was making is that you will pay extra for comfort. You don't want to skimp and buy cheap body armor. Body armor is hot, heavy and uncomfortable to wear day in and day out. Which is why they strive to keep making it as a lightweight and comfortable as possible. It's always going to be compromise between how much you can afford and finding some you'll be committed enough to wear everyday at work.

    Regarding the training program I posted. I just have a couple of points.

    First, if you only watched the two short video clips I posted, you are seeing just that... Two short video clips. They are in no way representative of the complete training program. The training actually emcompasses how you should respond with no prior warning. There are things you can do if your class is the first stop on the madman's shopping list. Obviously, the more notice you have to prepare, the better chance you have to initiate your action plan. But you're in no way encouraged to just sit there, and do nothing if you're the unlikely first place the shooter stops. They do teach how to respond to surprise attacks where your class is the first class hit.

    Second, and this is very important. In the very remote chance that your classroom will be the first stop on the shooters shopping list, is that a valid reason not to train for these types of countermeasures? Having the attitude of "Well, it may not work, so let's do nothing and just sit and wait to be slaughtered" is a pretty defeatist attitude to have, and I'm afraid you may already be destined to be a victim instead of a survivor.

    People can sit around and nit-pick any potential solution to the 'nth degree, seeing no value in any of it because it may not be flawlessly perfect, or cover every possible scenario with 100% guarantee'd reliability. That's what victims do. Survivors take charge, and take control of their destiny.

    And if we're going to play that game... Body armor does nothing to protect your dome against head shots, even if it was a head shot made by complete accident. It's of little consequence that the shooter may have been aiming for your well protected center mass, but got you in the head, instead. And likewise for taking a shotgun blast to the lower pelvis and severing your femoral artery.

    Here's another thing to consider. And it's more of a moral issue. You won't be wearing body armor everyday for very long before someone notices it. It will get around. Students will be whispering... "Did you know Mr. Tangle wears a bullet proof vest everyday?" During an active shooter event, your students will be looking at you for solutions. As their leader. As their savior. How are they going to feel if they see you wearing body armor everyday to protect yourself, but you've done nothing to help them prepare for an active shooter? They are going to be sitting there like sheep while you stand there wearing your invincible shield of armor.

    Good luck, buddy. I'm sure you'd much rather have the school allow you carry your defensive pistol. Anyone who has seen any of your posts knows you shoot with the precision of a skilled surgeon. But in the mean time... How are you going to help your students survive too?
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."


  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Wow, even in light of the Sandy Hook tragedy, it's business as usual for us. So I think, one thing I could do that might help is get a vest I can wear under my shirt, so I call Second Chance to get some advice. She said they are getting hundreds of calls like this! However, she said, it is illegal in most places for civilians to own bullet resistant vests!
    Check your state law. It may be legal where you are. I'm quite certain there are many places where it is just fine
    to purchase them. Have looked into it a couple of times and the only issue I encountered was price. Keep in mind
    that they come in different types; what wills top a 9mm won't necessarily stop a rifle round. Most won't stop a knife.

    Of course if you have big bucks you can get a suit tailor made. I like the bad- boy tuxedo look myself.
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  3. #33
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    hey Bark'n,

    Now that I have more time, let me add to the following, first my apologies, I was really p***** at my school's lackadaisical and shallow approach to the problem and I responded to that rather than to you.

    Second, thanks for the reference links!

    The point I was trying to make was that some situations are more difficult to deal with. It is no small thing that we wouldn't have anything to barricade a door. So that solution won't work for us.

    As for who is the first to be targeted, somebody has to be first. The classroom all my classes and labs are in is right by the rear door; in fact my classroom door is the closest to the door. So if they come in that door, which is a heavily used entrance and less obvious, then there's a high probability we would be first.

    I wasn't suggesting we do nothing, it's just that by the school's recommendations, nothing is being done until the attack occurs and then we're expected to do something with not much to work with.

    I think a good lock on doors would go a long way toward fending off a shooter. At the same time our wooden doors only have about a 1/4" of wood over the door bolt. Almost any large caliber would defeat that. A simple solution would be to install two big barrel bolts (I believe that's what they're called) to run into the steel door frame - that would take a lot to defeat those.

    Then, it would be nice to have some steel sheeting on the bottom half of classroom walls that interface to hallways. That would give some shielding against some loads and if the students 'duck' to the floor, they could have at least one more layer to de-energize and deflect bullets.
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  4. #34
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    Obviously this won't help if you are the first room entered, but something like the Hydra-Lock would work on doors that swing out.

    Home | Hydra-Lock

    They wrap around the hydraulics of a door to prevent it from opening.
    Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation. - Rule #23 in the USMC rules for gunfighting.

  5. #35
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    Having read this thread with some interest as I did complete course work to become a teacher here in Florida, just never took the required certification exam to graduate. So after spending time in the classroom doing some student teaching, and while I understand the desire to secure the classroom prior to an event, I have to ask, do the locks and tools permit quick release in case of an emergency where the school must be evacuated? Not having used any of these devices, and knowing the last person out is the teacher, will a student be able to manipulate these devices if the need arose?

  6. #36
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    Sarge66,

    I can only speak for our doors/locks of course, but as they stand now, they have lever handles instead of 'knobs'. The doors all open into the hallway and the locks are set to lock when the door closes. To a person outside the classroom, the doors are locked. To persons inside the classroom the door can be opened by the handle alone.

    That does bring up a good point however. If a lock is added, like the barrel bolt I mentioned, access to the room would be more resistant to a shooter, but also more problematic to police, etc. needing to gain access as well.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoppo View Post
    "Go into the hallway..." from the same people that brought you "duck and cover during a nuclear attack...".
    Whoppo - I used to do disaster planning when I was a teacher in California. You forgot the last part of the Civil Defense procedure: "... and kiss yourself goodbye"

    [getting your head under a desk is a GREAT way to reduce the risk from an earthquake, though]

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I can only speak for our doors/locks of course, but as they stand now, they have lever handles instead of 'knobs'. The doors all open into the hallway and the locks are set to lock when the door closes. To a person outside the classroom, the doors are locked. To persons inside the classroom the door can be opened by the handle alone.
    I'm a little confused. If the doors automatically lock from the inside, what's the issue with the lock?

    I think it's eventually going to come down to having teachers CC. That's the only real line of defense that will work, short of retrofiting schoolrooms with steel walls and that's not going to happen.

    Anyway, kudos to you for being pro active and looking for ways to protect your students beyond the administrations suggestions.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanlouise View Post
    I'm a little confused. If the doors automatically lock from the inside, what's the issue with the lock?
    Someone asked if the locked doors could be operated by students from the inside in an emergency if they needed to evacuate the room; I was saying yes they can.

    The issue is that essentially one bullet could defeat the bolt, since it's only covered by about 1/4" of wood. Once that cover is destroyed, the door can be opened. Although, I doubt many shooters would spend time trying to shoot out a lock, but if they did...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanlouise View Post
    ...I think it's eventually going to come down to having teachers CC.
    I would cc at school in a heartbeat! I've had some 300 hours of formal training and would take and even pay for any additional training required.

    I know some will say there are other answers, but let's keep in mind, that I can do anything with my gun that I can do without it. So all of the options are still available, but the gun would be there if every thing else fails.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanlouise View Post
    ...short of retrofiting schoolrooms with steel walls and that's not going to happen.
    Yeah, that's true, and that's what I'm whining about - we are basically told it's business as usual and oh BTW if something does happen try to run or lock the doors.

    But you're exactly right; schools are looking for ways to appear concerned without putting money where their 'mouths' are, which betrays the sincerity, or better lack of concern, for their students and employees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanlouise View Post
    ...Anyway, kudos to you for being pro active and looking for ways to protect your students beyond the administrations suggestions.
    Thanks, I am taking a fresh look at current resources, but it's not a good situation.
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  10. #40
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    The fact that your doors open outwards is actually a really great thing. From a safety standpoint, you want all doors to open towards the exit of the building. This prevents a panicked press of people smashing into the doors and their mass keeping the doors closed. If there's a panic, then the doors should be able to open even if there're a ton of people inside the room being a crazed mob.

    I'd never carry inside a school as a teacher. Kids are crazy, and eventually they'll do something really dumb if they think you have a gun. It's the law of large numbers. A million monkeys at a million typewriters eventually convince some immature youth to try to get your gun and do something with it.
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  11. #41
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    Yep, it's a code requirement for doors to open outward - a lesson learned many years ago in some night club fires as I recall.

    I've been teaching in this school for 24 years; I wouldn't hesitate for a second to cc. In Utah, even students can carry if they have CC license.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckQue View Post
    I'd never carry inside a school as a teacher. Kids are crazy, and eventually they'll do something really dumb if they think you have a gun. It's the law of large numbers. A million monkeys at a million typewriters eventually convince some immature youth to try to get your gun and do something with it.
    I'm not sure there's any evidence to support that assumption.

    First of all, it should never be mandatory that teachers carry guns. It's ridiculous to think that anyone is advocating that every teacher be armed. There are tens of thousands of teachers who abhor guns and are very anti-gun. There are many who are pacifists and could never bring themselves to even consider employing lethal force against an attacker. Even to save their own life. That's life. There are those kinds of people everywhere.

    However, I would venture to say that there isn't a school in this country where there isn't some faculty members who are not only willing... but are more than capable of using a firearm to defend against an active shooter attempting to slaughter a scores of innocents. Tangle is a prime example of one of those teachers. The man is wicked with a firearm (no pun intended). If I recall correctly he shoots something like 40,000 - 50,000 rounds per year.

    The whole problem with these mass shootings is this mixed up notion that "gun free zones" are really gun free. All these mass shooters seek out gun free zones because they are gun free. They know they can wreck as much carnage unmolested, at least until the police show up. That needs to change!

    As I said at the begining... I don't think there's any evidence which supports your claim that crazy students are going to be going around attempting to disarming teachers who may be carrying a gun. In fact, attempting to disarm a legally armed person is a good way to get shot. Someone tries to get your gun, lethal force is an authorized response. I just don't see that happening.

    However, there is plenty of evidence which supports the notion that armed personnel in the school does prevent mass shootings. All you have to do is look at Isreal, the Philipines and a few other "Pacific Rim" countries where they do allowed people to be armed in the schools.

    In 1974, Isreal was victim of school shootins with a large body count. The government created a program which allows armed parents and grandparents to man the schools with concealed handguns. It's a completely volunteer program so there is financial burdon to the schools. The Government of Isreal provides the specific training program they must complete. More than likely, it's paid out of pocket by the Volunteer parents or grandparents.

    Now you must know, and it's really common sense. Nothing is going to stop a gunman from attempting to start a shooting spree. And there have been only a couple of incidents since that program was initiated in Isreal. However, they were all limited to one or two casualties. And they were all stopped by the Volunteer armed responders who were already on the scene when the shooter started. There is no more death tolls amassing in high body counts. Casualties are limited to one's and two's. No more 20-30 dead and 20 wounded stories appearing in Isreal or the Philipines.

    I like Iseal's program of allowing armed parents and grandparents to patrol the school. These are people with skin in the game. It's their own children or grandchildren they're protecting.

    Until the school districts and politicians want to sit down and have a rational conversation about school safety and are willing to entertain such programs which are known to work, then nothing will change. Until then, it's just a bunch of anti-gunners who outright lie about what their agenda is. They don't care one wit about the safety of the children. And they are lying if they say otherwise. Otherwise, they wouldn't continue to embrace something which is proven not to work. There's absolutely no documented evidence to show "gun free" zones work. But there is evidence which shows armed citizens do work and can be very effective.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  13. #43
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    If you do go with the body armor, try to get whatever you buy fitted. Avoid buying off the rack. A fitted vest is much more comfortable.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    ...it should never be mandatory that teachers carry guns......There are tens of thousands of teachers who abhor guns and are very anti-gun. There are many who are pacifists and could never bring themselves to even consider employing lethal force against an attacker. Even to save their own life. That's life. There are those kinds of people everywhere.
    I suspect, if it ever did happen that teachers could cc, it would be on a completely voluntary basis and there would be lots of training involved, not just in shooting per se, but when a teacher would be justified in deliberately revealing they carried a gun and under what circumstances they could deploy it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    ...However, I would venture to say that there isn't a school in this country where there isn't some faculty members who are not only willing... but are more than capable of using a firearm to defend against an active shooter attempting to slaughter a scores of innocents. Tangle is a prime example of one of those teachers. The man is wicked with a firearm (no pun intended). If I recall correctly he shoots something like 40,000 - 50,000 rounds per year.
    Practically every faculty member in my area is in favor of teachers being allowed to cc. Several want to and the ones that don't want to, are in favor of those that do want to, to have the right to.

    Thanks for the kind words. It's actually closer to 19,000 a year, still...Hmmm, I haven't done a shooting video in a while...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    ...The whole problem with these mass shootings is this mixed up notion that "gun free zones" are really gun free. All these mass shooters seek out gun free zones because they are gun free. They know they can wreck as much carnage unmolested, at least until the police show up. That needs to change!
    Amen, amen, amen, amen, etc.

    I realize there are a number of things that can be done, and they are beneficial things. But, we have to ask, "If a shooter KNOWS teachers are armed AND trained will he be deterred?" If so, none of those other things will have to be implemented - it's stopped before it starts. We have seen crime rates go down as armed citizenry goes up - BG's, even madmen prefer to work their evil where they feel safe. We need to take safe (for them) away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    ...However, there is plenty of evidence which supports the notion that armed personnel in the school does prevent mass shootings. All you have to do is look at Isreal, the Philipines and a few other "Pacific Rim" countries where they do allowed people to be armed in the schools.
    We have to stop making it so easy. It's so easy the way things are now the death zones (erroneously called gun free zones) are attractive which encourages the attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    ....it's just a bunch of anti-gunners who outright lie about what their agenda is. They don't care one wit about the safety of the children. And they are lying if they say otherwise. Otherwise, they wouldn't continue to embrace something which is proven not to work. There's absolutely no documented evidence to show "gun free" zones work. But there is evidence which shows armed citizens do work and can be very effective.
    I could not agree more; I've said the very same thing myself. I attribute every shooting at Sandy Hook and other public massacres to gun control and idealism.

    BTW, there was a shooting at a church, or an attempted shooting, and an armed citizen shot the guy and stopped him.
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  15. #45
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    Here's the thing. Evil people will always be out there walking among us.

    So having armed faculty, and lawfully armed people in the schools will not stop or prevent all incidents of school shootings from happening. It's ridiculous to think it can. Evil nutjobs are out there.

    What it does do is mitigate the damage.

    You no longer have headlines reading "18 Dead and 14 Wounded in Shooting Rampage!"

    Instead you get "1 Dead and 2 Wounded in School Shooting. The shooter was prevented from killing more by an armed teacher who was present in the school at the time of the attack!"
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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