An Article About Engaging the Active Shooter

This is a discussion on An Article About Engaging the Active Shooter within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; The author of this piece was one of the primary instructors when I took the Active Shooter/Killer/Terrorist course at TDI. Several things to consider are ...

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Thread: An Article About Engaging the Active Shooter

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    An Article About Engaging the Active Shooter

    The author of this piece was one of the primary instructors when I took the Active Shooter/Killer/Terrorist course at TDI. Several things to consider are presented:

    Active Killer Response for the Armed Citizen | Buckeye Firearms Association
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

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    The linked article states:

    Of the incidents that were stopped by people at the scene (as opposed to incidents where the shooter was not resisted in any way) 2/3 of the shooters were stopped by citizens, However, those facts are not correct. Here's some definative information on the subject--

    In the newly released book, Active Shooter Events and Response by Dr. J. Pete Blair, the 264-page volume includes a chapter devoted to Blair's in-depth research of 84 active shooter cases that occurred in the US between 2000 and 2010. Active shooter events (ASEs) were most likely (37%) to erupt in a business setting (factory, warehouse, office, retail outlet), followed closely by schools (34%).

    A pistol was the most powerful weapon used in the majority [ 60% ] of ASE’s. Rifles were the next most popular weapons deployed in 27% of the attacks. In about 40% of cases, shooters carried multiple weapons. Only 2% brought explosives to attack the location. The median time from first reporting to the event ending was 3 minutes. By 9
    Minutes 73% had stopped shooting.

    49% of the time the shooting has stopped by the time law enforcement arrived. In about half those instances, the subject killed himself. About 4 % of the time, they fled. In the remaining cases, people on scene subdued or shot the shooter.

    84 Active Shooter Events (ASEs) occurred between 2000 and 2010. The frequency of ASEs appears to be increasing. Business locations were the most frequently attacked (37%), followed by schools (34%), and public (outdoor) venues (17%). The median number of people killed during ASEs is 2. The median number shot is 4. The most commonly used weapon was a pistol (60%), followed by rifles (27%), and shotguns (10%).

    Attackers carried multiple weapons in 41% of the attacks. Body armor was worn in 4% of cases. Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs) were brought to the scene in 2% of cases. Some shooters attempted to deny police access to the attack site through the use of barricades. The attacks ended before the police arrived 49% of the time. In 56% of the attacks that were still ongoing when the police arrived, the police had to use force to stop the killing. EMS entry to the attack site is often delayed because the police must conduct a thorough search of the scene in order to declare it secure.
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    In other words (You listening, "O"?), the best defense for the populace is a good offense by the populace.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    But if you just put a gun buster sign on the door the shooter will go away. Right!
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    I'm skeptical of this section:
    If you do get caught with a mouse gun, work on getting as close to the shooter as possible while keeping your gun hidden. Consider quickly moving towards headshots. You need to put the guy down quickly and you probably don't have a whole lot of rounds to spare.
    Regardless of weapon available, I'd recommend not getting as close to the shooter as possible. Weapon hidden or not, if he's firing indiscriminately, distance is your friend. And if all I had was a mouse gun (which is never) I would help others escape and not try to attack.

    And head shots are difficult already in a high stress situation. Now you want to try it with a mouse gun? Ever tried to fire an LCP (or similar) very accurately? Good luck with a headshot with your mouse gun.

    JMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    I'm skeptical of this section:


    Regardless of weapon available, I'd recommend not getting as close to the shooter as possible. Weapon hidden or not, if he's firing indiscriminately, distance is your friend. And if all I had was a mouse gun (which is never) I would help others escape and not try to attack.

    And head shots are difficult already in a high stress situation. Now you want to try it with a mouse gun? Ever tried to fire an LCP (or similar) very accurately? Good luck with a headshot with your mouse gun.

    JMO.
    I agree with the mouse gun attitude. I think the author was trying to make a statement about them without coming out and saying "carry enough gun" Thats what I took away from it....
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    However, this little bit I definitely agree with:

    - Get help! If you are in a physical confrontation with the shooter, try to get as many people as possible to help you. Often, in times of intense stress, bystanders freeze and don't know what to do. Sometimes a little encouragement is all that is needed to spring them into action. As two men tackled the Arizona shooter, they noticed he was trying to access a magazine to reload even as they were fighting. The men yelled out to Patricia Maisch, a 61-year old woman who was laying on the ground nearby. They told her to take the magazine away from the shooter. Despite her advanced age and fear, she did just that. In that single action, she did as much to incapacitate the shooter as the brave men who wrestled him to the ground. Call out for help. You just might get it!
    Not everybody is willing to act in these situations. Some aren't willing to take the initiative, but they gather their courage when they see others begin to act.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    I agree with the mouse gun attitude. I think the author was trying to make a statement about them without coming out and saying "carry enough gun" Thats what I took away from it....
    Actually, that's exactly what he said:

    Can you make the shot with the little .380 you threw in your back pocket because you were just going to the grocery store? If you are going to be in this game you better have a real gun. That means at least having a mid-sized (think Glock 26-sized or bigger) all the time. Otherwise you are stacking the deck against yourself before you even start.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
    -General James Mattis, USMC

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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    The linked article states:

    Of the incidents that were stopped by people at the scene (as opposed to incidents where the shooter was not resisted in any way) 2/3 of the shooters were stopped by citizens, However, those facts are not correct. Here's some definative information on the subject--...
    So let me get this straight...

    To try to disprove the claim that is made in the linked article that stated "Of the incidents that were stopped by people at the scene (as opposed to incidents where the shooter was not resisted in any way) 2/3 of the shooters were stopped by citizens, not cops", you post Dr. J. Pete Blair's "results" which is based on information compiled from just 84 preselected cases involving a shooting and the 84 preselected cases were cherry picked from all the shooting cases which took place over a time period of 10 years.

    The only thing you have proven is that Dr. J. Pete Blair successfully rigged his "results" through the manipulation of his data source.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    So let me get this straight...

    To try to disprove the claim that is made in the linked article that stated "Of the incidents that were stopped by people at the scene (as opposed to incidents where the shooter was not resisted in any way) 2/3 of the shooters were stopped by citizens, not cops", you post Dr. J. Pete Blair's "results" which is based on information compiled from just 84 preselected cases involving a shooting and the 84 preselected cases were cherry picked from all the shooting cases which took place over a time period of 10 years.

    The only thing you have proven is that Dr. J. Pete Blair successfully rigged his "results" through the manipulation of his data source.
    Really, the data is self explanatory. The cases were counted over a specific period of time, not preselected based on what cases to report or leave out as you suggest here.. I'm not trying to disprove anything, I'm using a well researched and accurate [ for it's length of time reported ] findings based on facts in evidence. Got a problem with that, take it up with the Dr. would probably be my first suggestion. You probably don't want to hear the second or third suggestion.

    The linked information is an opinion not based on facts nor gives references as to where the information was obtained. You see, I research this type of materials for one of the areas of employment is developing active counter measures for professional medical facilities/businesses relative ASE's. I'm retained to do so because I have professional swat, swat team leader. ASE and counter sniper training. With those skills in my possibles bag, I understand how to set up buildings to deny access and reduce liability for the business owners.

    You believe whatever you like, I'll stick to researched and documented facts for my clients from a professional, and not from some post on the internet. Hope the above gets that straight for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Really, the data is self explanatory...
    Yes it is...it is cherry picked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    Yes it is...it is cherry picked.
    Cherry picked in what way, the information was gathered over a 10 year period, ALL ASE's in that time frame were all inclusively compiled. If you are saying the 10 year period was cherry picked, fine by me, but the fact remains the linked article doesn't come close to the numbers, as much as you apparently would like it to be so, putting citizen responses at higher percentages of successfully taking down ASE shooters than is historically correct.

    I reported facts from the real world having been researched by a doctor who wrote a book on ASE events. If you don't believe his %'s, take issue with his figures, buy the book and look at where his information came from, he lists his sources as is customary in such matters. The doctor reported facts in evidence from historical data, the linked article is nothing more than a one opinions and doesn't give references for the figures/%'s as I did.

    I tend to look for materials written by professionals, not laypeople. I've found over the last 3 decades that's usually the most accurate and best source of information, as a professional myself. Your mileage may vary depending on whether you're a layperson looking in or a professional looking out.
    The mind is the limiting factor

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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Cherry picked in what way, the information was gathered over a 10 year period, ALL ASE's in that time frame were all inclusively compiled. If you are saying the 10 year period was cherry picked, fine by me, but the fact remains the linked article doesn't come close to the numbers, as much as you apparently would like it to be so, putting citizen responses at higher percentages of successfully taking down ASE shooters than is historically correct.

    I reported facts from the real world having been researched by a doctor who wrote a book on ASE events. If you don't believe his %'s, take issue with his figures, buy the book and look at where his information came from, he lists his sources as is customary in such matters. The doctor reported facts in evidence from historical data, the linked article is nothing more than a one opinions and doesn't give references for the figures/%'s as I did.

    I tend to look for materials written by professionals, not laypeople. I've found over the last 3 decades that's usually the most accurate and best source of information, as a professional myself. Your mileage may vary depending on whether you're a layperson looking in or a professional looking out.
    Here is the resume of the author of the article originally posted:
    Greg?s Training Resume | Active Response Training
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Here is the resume of the author of the article originally posted:
    Greg?s Training Resume | Active Response Training
    Quite impressive, great to see professional guys with his quals out there serving the public.
    The mind is the limiting factor

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    VIP Member Array Jaeger's Avatar
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    I think that's all exactly spot on.
    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive." C.S. Lewis

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