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When can I use my firearm

2K views 28 replies 18 participants last post by  Ghost1958 
#1 ·
So just as the title says, I am wanting information or scenarios or cases perhaps that will better help me understand when we as permit holders are allowed to use a firearm or pull one. Specifically in the state of Florida.

I have read a few examples and read comments where if someone is being attacked or threatened to be attacked yet the attacker doesnt have a weapon that one would get in trouble for pulling a firearm. What about pulling but not using?

Example, ive read posts where the majority of people say they would neeeever pull a gun if they are being attacked by fists. Thwy say theyd just fight them. Then I see a video of someome being victim of "the knockout" game and read comments about how they wish the victim had a gun or they would have shot the attacker had it been them.

Is there a place in this website thatll better explain when it is legally okay to pull or use a firearm in self defense? Or anothet website? Again, specifically in florida.

Heres a example...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v2k7T7NNpUE

Lets say for this example I am yhe guy in the black shirt. I have done nothing and this guy in green is obviously wanting to fight. I am backing away and announce to him to keep away from me. When he continues to not listen and gives me a shove am I legally able to pull my weapon? I am not a big guy and would not be able to defend against someone like that. After pulling weapon if I back up and give room and he continues at me would I be able to use it? What about a warning shot? I would bet after seeing a weapon the said attacker would run away.


So like I said im just trying to get the knowledge I need or think I need before my permit arrives. Second to last thing I want is to end up in jail for defending myself... of course first would be ending up dead.
 
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#2 ·
When you know in your heart and mind that there is no other option but to employ deadly force to save your own life or prevent serious bodily harm.

There are hundreds of thousands of different scenarios but it all boils down to this.
 
#3 ·
First, I recommend focusing on all the ways to avoid using your firearm.

Your attacker's presentation of lethal force and intent to use it, is your critical decision time. Can you safely get away? "In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob should be required reading.

Stand-your-ground laws can be useful in defending the innocent, but it's stupid to shoot someone "just because you can".
 
#4 ·
Good question. I also wonder when it is acceptable to intervene when you see someone that is unarmed getting into trouble with a BG. It is great to MYOB but if I were to see an elderly person getting attacked I couldn't stand by and not get involved, so is pulling a gun acceptable to protect the older person even if I were not in danger? This is borderline playing cop, but again...you can't stand there and watch and wait for the LE to arrive.

Thanks for bringing this up, hopefully we will get some more good and legal advice. I think FL and SC laws are closely the same on a lot of things.
 
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#7 ·
Florida Firearms: Law, Use & Ownership -- by Jon Gutmacher

In The Gravest Extreme -- by Mas Ayoob.

Beyond those two introductions, I'd strongly recommend some high-quality training that involves force-on-force, situational shoot/don't-shoot type scenarios, close-quarters stuff, etc. The more training, and the more-varied training, the better. You'll change, as you train. You'll change over time. The statutes might well change over that timeframe as well. Keep learning, and keep pushing your limitations on knowledge of the laws, situations, your abilities. That's about all you can do, really.

Much of it will depend on your ability to quickly and rationally assess a situation and apply your given skills; much will depend on state law. The FLA statutory limitations on use of force should be easily discerned, from reading the statutes. But, of course, the risk of having someone question the reasonableness of your actions is always present. How much are you prepared to lose, if you get such a zealot questioning what you thought was an iron-clad response? That should come into it as well, the evaluation of your specific situation and pros/cons as they apply to your lifestyle, social realities, financial realities, relationships, working life.
 
#8 ·
I would prefer the question to be: When do I have to use my gun? It is a last resort to save your life, a family member's life, or if you choose to get involved, someone else's life. If you want to use your gun, join one of the shooting sports.
 
#9 ·
Start by understanding that the moment you draw your gun the life as you know it has changed and often not for the better. Even if found innocent in a trial civil court can take every thing you own.

This is a question that requires something more than a blog on the internet. Deep inside each of us resides a basic animal passion to live. The fight you are capable of when that part of you comes out is often scary. As said before focus first on can I run can I find cover etc. Helping others is a personal decision I have chosen a course of action and so must you.

Good luck and there is a book Title On Killing Author Col Dave Grossman worth a read in my opinion.
 
#10 ·
Another thing to review would be: The Deadly Force Triangle ... Ability/Opportunity/Jeopardy, as it relates to situations and the justifiability of the use of force. With most states' statutes on use-of-force, the A.O.J. principles represent a higher standard and an easy way to be pretty certain you're "clean" when confronting violence against you and others. But, as always, know your state's statutes cold ... with various levels of force, escalation, variations in the home/car or on someone else's property, variations with helping third parties, fleeing felons, etc.
 
#13 ·
When using deadly force, you must prove that your life or the life of another is in danger. That being said, not every fight is a gun fight. If you feel that you may not be able to defend yourself from someone larger, perhaps look into some martial arts training. You don't have to be a black belt to be able to defend yourself. Never use your gun as your main source of protection. It is a LAST resort. OC spray would be another ad tactic. Good luck. Be Safe
 
#14 ·
I can only echo several of the posts above. Read the above mentioned books, and some inner reflection. The answer to your question lies within each of us. YOU are going to have to make this decision on your own, and be able to defend it against 6, or 12 other citizens from your community.

I attended a seminar where this question came up. The question was posed to the Gwinnett County District Attorney and he did the most magnificent song and dance concerning the question. According to him it all boils down to whether or not you were in fear for your life, or that of another citizen; and even then, you would probably still have to defend your actions in court.

As far as "pulling" to discourage some action, in many states that would constitute "brandishing, which in many states is illegal.
 
#15 ·
Great, thanks for the replies. Ive read the florida concealed carry handbook. (Think thats the name the one thats green and has a silver/black pistol on the front.)

I will look into the other two mentioned now.

Yes I suppose when the time comes one would know when it is right or appropriate. If I fear for my life I should be able to in my opinion as of right now. What about being pursued by someone over road rage who comes up to my window after im gridlocked in traffic and attempts to open my door and bangs on my window. Obviously I wouldnt shoot while im safely in the car however would pulling it be okay? As of now if think itd be legal. And if the window were to break id think itd be legal to use it if he is obviously willing to get out of his car, attempt to open mine and break a window when he cant open the door to get at me then hes clearly attempting to really hurt or kill me.

I guesd theres no "set" its okay to pull now and not okay to pull now rules is there...? Im learning the justice system isnt cut and dry and every case has its differences how big or small they may be. Even if two cases were identical there could very well be two totally different results.

Guess thats the world we live in and carrying a gun and saving your life could quite possibly mean you also get jailtime.

Not really fair for the average person like me who is very easygoing and never picks a fight with any1.
 
#19 ·
OutWestSystems made an excellent point about the legal vs. moral aspect of using deadly force. To complicate it even further I would say that after you figure those two out you then need to figure out the strategic aspect of pulling your weapon. In your case of the road rage incident I'd say it is very important when you draw and when your opponent sees you are armed. Some adversaries will back down but some become more enraged. If you are sitting in your car in your seat belt you are at a huge disadvantage. He could break the window and disarm you if you can't draw quick enough or in a way that isn't completely obvious.

My goal is to keep the fact I'm armed a secret as long as possible and ideally up until the BG is eating lead. This helps to negate legal problems associated with brandishing etc. But better to get your weapon too early and deal with a brandishing charge than having a violent attacker on you and not being able to use your weapon.
 
#16 ·
When you have to. The problem with this topic is there is a difference between the legality and the morality of this question. In some states, FL being on of them there are cases in which I believe it would be legal to use your firearm, but not moral. In other states there are cases in which it would be moral but not legal. The thing you need to put into your head is that once you draw and use that firearm your life is never going to be the same. It is a last resort tool to prevent an act that YOU believe you MUST stop. Why did I put those two words in caps? Because it is "you" that have to make that decision and it should be something in which "you" believe "must" be stopped, anything less you need to leave the firearm in the holster.
 
#18 ·
This really is the important part. Personally, if I or my loved ones are in danger of death or grievous injury, I'll use whatever I have to stop it, no matter what the law says. If we're not, I won't use lethal force, no matter what the law says.
 
#22 ·
ahhh yeah, but i'll take my chances with them rather than anonymous posters on a forum.
Well, the good advice is that which basically restricts itself to recommendations to consider this or that, then points to the statutes themselves. Because, in the end, it's the statutes that will matter in a court of law. All else is basically a reminder to do your homework and to consider various aspects of the implications of using force on another citizen.
 
#23 ·
You're right that you could, possibly, find yourself in a situation like that in the video(and there may be legitimate reasons you can't simply run off.) It's also possible that you're right in thinking that the ape will beat you to death and you can't win the fight. Neither of those will be an assurance that you won't get tossed in the can to rot for using a firearm to terminate the incident. An assailant with a weapon may seem a no-brainier but try to imagine being at your trial explaining how you smoked some sack of dirt because he "shoved" you. It's never an easy answer, but it sure needs to be a last resort.

Unless you are physically disabled it makes sense to get yourself to a gym and maybe get some unarmed combative training. It won't equip you to mop the floor with bullies necessarily, but it may help you approach such a situation with enough confidence that you don't immediately feel the need to resort to deadly force which, IMO would be inappropriate in that scenario.
 
#24 ·
You'd be better served studying the laws of your state. Laws very from state to state on what is acceptable. Getting advice such as this on a public forum is not a good idea. Bad advice, even said tongue in cheek, will land you behind bars and/or a civil suit.
 
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#25 ·
You'd be better served studying the laws of your state. Laws very from state to state on what is acceptable. Getting advice such as this on a public forum is not a good idea. Bad advice, even said tongue in cheek, will land you behind bars and/or a civil suit.
:yup:

Any advice blindly taken will land you in a pile of dung, absolutely.

Probably the greatest lesson anyone can learn in this life is: trust, but verify; or, in the absolutist variant, question everything.
 
#29 ·
Simple answer. Know your states laws on SD. Regardless of some folks opinions of moral vs legal if you are justified legally you can pretty much bet your good in the moral dept.

Brandishing is the most misunderstood thing I have ever seen discussed. You are in the process of being attacked to a level of reasonable fear of serious bodily harm or death, judged by the reasonable man standard, and you draw your weapon.

The BG/BGs see you draw decide they need to be someplace else and run or surrender YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SHOOT. In fact legally you had better not. When the threat stops you stop. That is NOT brandishing. That is checking your fire due to a change in the situation that caused your reasonable fear of death or bodily harm that causes you not to have a reason for that fear anymore.

Brandishing is pulling your firearm with the intent to scare or alarm or threaten someone that isnt a lethal force level threat to you.

Your going to get a hundred answers here because states SD laws are different. Some have Castle and stand your ground. Others have some silly duty to retreat laws.

It boils down to the statutes in your state. Disparity of force and ton of other things can play into the whole equation.
 
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