A few notes on layered defense.

This is a discussion on A few notes on layered defense. within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; After reading several threads concerning fences, and dogs I thought I might make a few observations. I was a land surveyor for about seven years ...

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Thread: A few notes on layered defense.

  1. #1
    Member Array liljake82's Avatar
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    A few notes on layered defense.

    After reading several threads concerning fences, and dogs I thought I might make a few observations.

    I was a land surveyor for about seven years and have alot of experience with trespassing. First off in MO surveyors are exempt from trespass but are liable for damages. They are NOT required to ask permission or inform.

    #1 On dogs. You're big mean rot/pitbull/doberman is a sucker for a porkchop bone or a $.99 McD's cheeseburger. I've been in many back yards with "vicious" dogs and all it took was a little baby talk and maybe a treat. Yes if your dog is a barker he may alert you, but if your dog stays outside and your burgler is a pro the dog will be just as happy to see him as you.

    #2 There isn't a fence made (short of razor wire) that a person can't get over or arround. Electrified you say? I used to carry some old speaker wire to ground out electric fences. No sweat.

    #3 If you want your gate locked use a combo padlock and a hasp on the inside of your gate. There are only so many key patterns out there. We also had a big ring full of padlock keys. 5 minutes and we were in. If someone really wants in a 24oz ripper will either knock the lock open or pry the screws right out of the wood.

    #4 Getting fancy with booby traps will get someone hurt and you in trouble. Land surveyors, utility workers, meter readers etc, may need to gain access to your yard while you are at work or out of town. Some cutesy booby trap that will "only hurt you if you're doing something you're not supposed to be doing" may hurt someone that is just doing their job. BTW if you have a utility easement in your yard (check your deed) you have to allow access to your yard. If you don't they will think nothing of cutting down you 8 foot privacy fence to get the backhoe in.

    #5 Pay attention! I don't know how many times we parked a big white truck in front of a clients house, marched arround their yard for two hours, finished the job, knocked on the door to let them know we were done, only to be met by a homeowner saying "oh you're here?" Umm we got here 2 hours ago where were you? I'm not saying sit by the window with binoculars all day, but a peek out the window every now and then is a good idea. SA doesn't end when you walk in the front door.

    #6 Thorny vegitation. Well, one of my old crew cheifs most common sayings was "I's born and raised in uh brar patch". Machete's are cheap and there is no waiting period or background check.


    I realize alot of these comments are toung-in-cheek, but I just thought some of these observations might be usefull.


    BTW if you plan on building a fence, call a surveyor. It's alot cheaper than a law suite and you may find out your yard is bigger than you thought.
    Either you are a weapon and your gun is a tool or your gun is a weapon and you are the tool.
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    Member Array wpage's Avatar
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    Best defense in in the house. All good points about outside. Hard to control...
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    Member Array pangloss9's Avatar
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    My dad told me a long time ago that "locks only keep out honest people." (No offense intended to people who have to gain entrance in the course of their job.) My thinking on the matter is simply that my house needs to be a harder target than nearby houses. That's no guarantee that I won't be targeted, but it tilts the odds in my favor a little bit.

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    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Sorry this is long. Even longer than my usual verbose posts. Reduced it best as I can.
    Suppose that multi layered defenses mean different things to different folks. Some of your observations are by no means universal. For instance
    Quote Originally Posted by liljake82 View Post
    First off in MO surveyors are exempt from trespass but are liable for damages. They are NOT required to ask permission or inform.
    I don't doubt that is generally true of Mo but may not apply to all states or scenarios. I won't even say what the law is in my state but rather in our situation private property begins over two miles from my house. So I would be hard put to see where a surveyor would need to be on my property
    Quote Originally Posted by liljake82 View Post
    #1 On dogs. You're big mean rot/pitbull/doberman is a sucker for a porkchop bone or a $.99 McD's cheeseburger. I've been in many back yards with "vicious" dogs and all it took was a little baby talk and maybe a treat. Yes if your dog is a barker he may alert you, but if your dog stays outside and your burgler is a pro the dog will be just as happy to see him as you.
    This is by no means universal by selecting a breed based upon its characteristics and proper training some of which I posted on my Baiting Dogs thread. Dogs can be immune from baiting and seduction.
    There is nothing in #2 through #5 I really disagree with. Except that with some thought you can create some effective and legal bobby traps. For instance nothing illegal about ankle twisting holes in your under brush or ground cover or storing sulphuric acid in Vodka bottles.
    Now #6 made me laugh envisioning a psycho with a machete wailing away at the demon thorn bushes. Grateful for living in a state that respects a mans property. Lethal force is justified to protect property and stop a felony in Washington state. About once a year some idiot gets themselves killed for being where they do not belong. No one ever gets charged, rarely makes the paper. Maybe a one liner in the police blotter. Joe Horn would have never been charged in Washington. Now a mad man destroying property. Running through my underbrush swinging a machete would catch a bullet as quick as I could get them in my sights. My 12 gauge hollow point slug would cost less than his machete, no waiting period no background check. Six inch diameter wound civity

    Now my perception of multi layered defense.
    Layer #1 Plan
    At forty I sold the business and retired we spent about five years looking for the perfect location for us. Buying after Katrina it was important that our home be in a defensible secure area, that we can protect from marauding Gestapo as well as thugs and home invaders. We eventually stumbled onto a home that is an absolutely perfect. It fit our criteria to a T and exceeded all of our hopes.

    Layer #2 Location
    We bought this place because it is a defensible secure area surrounded by state land and national park. On the military crest of hill a bit under two miles up a private dirt road off of the highway. At 900 feet elevation some folks call it a mountain. On one side of our property is a steep bluff that affords us a great view of the Olympic mountains, Puget Sound and the wet lands below. If you have seen the movie "Twilight" think of the view from the trees add mountains on the horizon and Puget Sound where the river is Thats our property bordered by a salmon rich stream. It will become Hamburger Hill for anyone attempting an assault us from that end of our property. On the opposite side of our property across the dirt road is 1442 square miles of pristine National park, state land forestry lands and other undeveloped lands clear to the ocean.

    Layer #3 Community
    The private two mile dirt road that is the only practical way to our place is easily defensible. I have few neighbors. All the lots must be over 20 acre and two thirds of our "hill" is undeveloped state land. Those that do live up here are all liberty loving gun tooting Northwest hillbilly rednecks. Many LEO and/or combat vets. If that road is being defended those making the assault will feel like the Persians at the battle of Thermopylae. There are several narrow sections of road bordered by steep cliffs, and three similar fall back positions. It would take a major military assault to overrun our property. We all know each other. Anyone on our private road unfamiliar to us gets stopped and asked if they need help. Those that do not have business here are escorted back to the public highway. We are never to busy to not help a stranger on our road.

    Layer #4 Notify
    After the two mile drive up the dirt road to our place. Our property is clearly posted. Delivery and Utility are granted access. All those without warrant or invitation confirm their intent to do harm to me and my family by proceeding. The drive way is a good 150 yard driveway through dense trees.

    Layer #5 Observe & Record
    Alarms are useless no one would hear, if they did it, an hour or more would pass before LEO could find the place. Instead cameras abound some hidden all with internet feeds for off site storage / accessibility. No matter what happens there is will be pictures of the perps and their license plates. The cameras provide real time feeds so we know what is going on outside, from inside our home or remotely via the internet. Random perimeter sensors alert us as soon as some one enters the property and their location

    Layer #6 Alert
    Once in the clearing that is our lawn another set of motion sensors turn on out door lights and ring a buzzer inside the house. We have a couple of landing strip lights that I can hit intruders with to blind our uninvited "guests". Illuminating the targets.

    Layer #7 Distraction
    During the day before they get out of the car they will be greeted brew of attack turkeys. Don't laugh folks are terrified by those turkeys, no one gets out of the car when they are surrounded by those birds.

    The dogs are behind a fence that surrounds the house except the front door and driveway. They have their own entrance into the house. The two bitches bark and snarl warnings, before attacking The male hides in the house if anyone makes it to him without an escort he does not bark, he bites with teeth capable of shredding bear hide.

    Layer #8 Confront
    Normally before they have gotten out of their car. Still trying to figure out how to deal with the turkeys. They are met by me shotgun or AR at low ready, (or the .45 if I am away from the guns when the first alert goes off), a laser dancing around the windshield from somewhere on the porch. Our highly territorial dogs do not like strangers. It takes two or three visits before they warm up to friends. Even than other than immediate family do not try coming in the house without us letting you in. The are very intelligent, They know different peoples relationship to us & them, where utility & delivery personal boundaries are if they go outside of them the dogs go into attack mode. They refuse food and treats from everyone except us. They see trying to feed them a treat or snacks as an attempt to hurt them with Habanero peppers, may as well kick them.

    Layer #9 Secure
    No one can see inside the house. The front of the house has an enclosed porch no one can see through. At the porch door is another camera and speaker system, as well cameras around the perimeter of the house. They have to enter the front porch to get to the front door of the house. There and inside the house is where the dogs will have access to intruders. All the windows double paned double locked. The doors are all steel with dead bolts into a steel reinforced frame. I want to get steel roll shutters for when we go out but the wife is against them. As of now they are not in. Real valuables guns etc are in a safe secure rooms and vaults that no one is going to penetrate.

    Layer #9 Defend
    We are well armed with weapons on us and within easy reach. Anyone entering uninvited will be making their final fatal mistake.

    Layer #10 Escape
    Last we have locking bedrooms, a safe room, a panic room and an escape hatch if needed.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

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    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    I found some of this useful.

    I would like to point out that I lived in Missouri for a bit. While I found the info useful. You must have done city surveying My ex-father in law lived in the Ozark Mountains, those country folk don't take kindly to trespassing law or no law.

    As far as the only one thing I will say because someone has mentioned the other part I would have commented on.

    It's the dog part, I've worked Animal Control for 10 years now and I can say I've dealt with Electricians, Utility Workers, Plumbers, Meter Readers and others and they don't call Mcds and 99 cent CBs to get in and out of yards, they call us.

    Other then that, some useful information for sure.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

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    Member Array liljake82's Avatar
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    Longrider,

    As far as I know, all states have a "grid" type layout in which Survey markers are set every 1/4-1/2 mile, sometimes every 1/8 mile. Check the deed to your property, it will have a section, township, and range. Also have a look at your laws as to what is required of surveyors, and utility workers. Also keep in mind, they may not use the drive. Depending on the way your land lays, they may be on foot. I've packed survey equipment for miles before. I'm just saying if you shoot first, and ask questions later, you may shoot the wrong guy.

    Guardian,

    I've worked mostly in NW MO. From Maryville to Marshall, to Peculiar, to St, Joe. Some of the guys I used to work with did some work down south. One almost got shot when he came across a still in the backwoods. It definatly helps to be very diplomatic.

    Never had to call animal control. I just always got by on being a dog person.
    Either you are a weapon and your gun is a tool or your gun is a weapon and you are the tool.
    ----- FMD

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    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liljake82 View Post
    Longrider,

    As far as I know, all states have a "grid" type layout in which Survey markers are set every 1/4-1/2 mile, sometimes every 1/8 mile. Check the deed to your property, it will have a section, township, and range. Also have a look at your laws as to what is required of surveyors, and utility workers. Also keep in mind, they may not use the drive. Depending on the way your land lays, they may be on foot. I've packed survey equipment for miles before. I'm just saying if you shoot first, and ask questions later, you may shoot the wrong guy.
    Not quite understanding your point. Did you read my post? We live far outside the boundaries of any township. Private property begins two miles before you get to my property. Of course meter readers are granted access in the performance of their duties but that is the only reason any utility worker has to be on my property without a specific invitation. Same with delivery people. and of course my land has been surveyed. It is a done deal no surveyor need to be on my property. If one of my neighbors wants to clarify their property lines they will let me know. They know I have no qualms about drawing down on uninvited guests. If anyone is not coming on the driveway to my house as I said I have sensors that let me know someone is on my property. Anyone sneaking through my woods or brush will find themselves shot as soon as they are in my sights. Decent people do not sneak through peoples property unannounced. Both local judges understand that concept as do the local LEO. If decent people have business on my property they come down the drive way and announce themselves. Better yet they call first or send me a letter letting me know they are coming.


    Quote Originally Posted by liljake82 View Post
    I just always got by on being a dog person.
    As I tried to explain that and treats / bait do not always work. Both may in fact increase the dogs aggression and hostility
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

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    Come climb into my yard with obvious 'bad intentions'...the dog is the easy part.

    You make some good points about how live in the 'barn', but not all CCW'ers are like that. Most reading here are much more aware of their house's surroundings, and with a dog...you're not sneaking in anywhere. OMOYMV
    Last edited by RETSUPT99; March 10th, 2010 at 05:39 AM.
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    Ex Member Array maddyfish's Avatar
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    After reading your post, I am so glad that we decided our country house -someday retirement home-would be off the grid. Just what I don't want, some hollier than thou utilities worker wandering around my property.

    Plus I do own a shovel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by liljake82 View Post
    After reading several threads concerning fences, and dogs I thought I might make a few observations.
    Good food for thought and a head's up for anyone. Some homeowners can become complacent and let their guard down.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

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    Member Array liljake82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    Not quite understanding your point. Did you read my post? We live far outside the boundaries of any township. Private property begins two miles before you get to my property. Of course meter readers are granted access in the performance of their duties but that is the only reason any utility worker has to be on my property without a specific invitation. Same with delivery people. and of course my land has been surveyed. It is a done deal no surveyor need to be on my property. If one of my neighbors wants to clarify their property lines they will let me know. They know I have no qualms about drawing down on uninvited guests. If anyone is not coming on the driveway to my house as I said I have sensors that let me know someone is on my property. Anyone sneaking through my woods or brush will find themselves shot as soon as they are in my sights. Decent people do not sneak through peoples property unannounced. Both local judges understand that concept as do the local LEO. If decent people have business on my property they come down the drive way and announce themselves. Better yet they call first or send me a letter letting me know they are coming.



    As I tried to explain that and treats / bait do not always work. Both may in fact increase the dogs aggression and hostility
    Township has nothing to do with city limits. Township, and Range are references to latitude and longitude. Land is divided into 1 mile X 1 mile squares. these are marked by survey markers, and surveyors are allowed access to them. It may be necessary for them to use these markers even if they are surveying a property that is 2 full miles away from yours. Check your state laws concerning this. Also your state probably has a state surveyor that could tell you more. I'm just saying just because someone is on your property without permission doesn't give you the right to shoot them on sight.


    I'm sure there are well trained dogs that can't be "bribed". Most people do not invest the time/money to get them there. I'm just saying buying a "mean looking dog" and putting him in the back yard doesn't make him/her a guard dog.


    The whole point of my original post is to make folks aware that security can't be bought. You still need to be aware of your suroundings no matter how high your fence, how mean your dog, or how much you pay for locks, lights, and security systems.
    Either you are a weapon and your gun is a tool or your gun is a weapon and you are the tool.
    ----- FMD

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    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liljake82 View Post
    Longrider,

    As far as I know, all states have a "grid" type layout in which Survey markers are set every 1/4-1/2 mile, sometimes every 1/8 mile. Check the deed to your property, it will have a section, township, and range. Also have a look at your laws as to what is required of surveyors, and utility workers. Also keep in mind, they may not use the drive. Depending on the way your land lays, they may be on foot. I've packed survey equipment for miles before. I'm just saying if you shoot first, and ask questions later, you may shoot the wrong guy.

    Guardian,

    I've worked mostly in NW MO. From Maryville to Marshall, to Peculiar, to St, Joe. Some of the guys I used to work with did some work down south. One almost got shot when he came across a still in the backwoods. It definatly helps to be very diplomatic.

    Never had to call animal control. I just always got by on being a dog person.
    LOL, forgot about the moonshine folks LOL. Definitely have to watch out for them, their a whole different story.

    I know those areas well, above Kansas City, nice terroritory. I was stationed at Whiteman AFB for a few years.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

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