FBI/Terror Task Force Raid

This is a discussion on FBI/Terror Task Force Raid within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I guess Ramadan and Eid al-Adha are fine holidays again. Anywise I left the craziness of religious aside....

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  1. #31
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    I guess Ramadan and Eid al-Adha are fine holidays again. Anywise I left the craziness of religious aside.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I wonder if Jesus will be armed with a Glock?
    Actually I think He was spotted with a Colt on Palm Sunday. :)
    pro-CZ's, pro-AR's, anti-CZAR's

  4. #33
    Member Array Pete14's Avatar
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    I had heard on one of the news reports that the FBI had infiltrated this group. Has anyone else heard this?

    I find it interesting that this group was willing to kill LEO's and trained all the time but was either caught off guard or chose not to shoot it out?

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    re:sgtD

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtD View Post
    [B]
    Randy Weaver must be having flashbacks right about now. The folks at Waco aren't, because they are all dead..
    Factually incorrect, as there were survivors there and some actually were able to return to the property, but that is irrelevant to the core distrust you have in our government and its institutions.

    The big issue (IMO) is that views in support of these people blacken the eye of all of the rest of us. There is no right to rebellion---or to even encourage rebellion, or to conspire to commit terroristic acts. The religion of the BGs is quite of no concern.

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array Sig 210's Avatar
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    The big issue (IMO) is that views in support of these people blacken the eye of all of the rest of us. There is no right to rebellion---or to even encourage rebellion, or to conspire to commit terroristic acts. The religion of the BGs is quite of no concern.
    Whenever folks talk favorably about rebellion and civil war it makes all of us gunowners look suspect.

    The Hutaree called other militia groups and asked for help in repelling federal agents. The leadership of those militia groups viewed the Hutaree as far out nutcases and did not respond to their request for aid. When push came to shove the bad butt Hutaree did not fire one shot.

    Not one of those arrested had a full time job. Two of the younger arestees made some money doing part time work on cars. Where did the Hutaree get the money for all that fine gear and those really nice guns? Were they were in the recreation pharmaceutical business?

  7. #36
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    re: Sig210 where'd the money come from

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig 210 View Post
    Whenever folks talk favorably about rebellion and civil war it makes all of us gunowners look suspect.

    (Stuff deleted for brevity)
    Not one of those arrested had a full time job. Two of the younger arestees made some money doing part time work on cars. Where did the Hutaree get the money for all that fine gear and those really nice guns? Were they were in the recreation pharmaceutical business?
    Good question. Where'd the money come from.

    I would hope that the authorities know the answer to your question. It is certainly within the realm of the possible that money flowed from other radical groups or even from just one or two well heeled financiers. Being in the recreational drug business, though criminal, would at least be a form of an "honest living." Receiving outside support from someone well heeled, would be a very scary thing for us to learn about.

    Regardless, you raise a good question. The money had to come from somewhere and that needs looking into by the authorities, and I'm sure it will be looked into.

  8. #37
    Member Array kdydak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgtD View Post
    FBI Gun Raid on Christian Fringe Group Huh, I seem to remember similar headlines the last time we had a Lib in office. Question? - Where were all these criminal gun toting Christain fringe groups for the 8 years in between? Sleeping I guess.

    Randy Weaver must be having flashbacks right about now. The folks at Waco aren't, because they are all dead. At least they arrested these people, instead of killing them or members of their family. Seems like change is in the air and things are looking up.

    Well, at least we now know who the bad guys are, just steer clear of Christians and guns and you'll be ok. (ooh yeah, I forgot, veterans are on the potential terrorist list too.) I better stay away from myself. lol

    If this is all true, they deserve to be locked up, but past experiences lead me to expect that they may soon be free ala Mr. Weaver.
    You forgot those evil people with Ron Paul stickers to stay away from. All terrorists and the gov't told you so.

  9. #38
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    Murder is murder, even if you think you have a good political reason to do it.
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  10. #39
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    Thumbs down Wackos Abound

    I had heard on one of the news reports that the FBI had infiltrated this group. Has anyone else heard this?
    Yes. Confirmed today.

    WSJ:

    Militia Probe Included Undercover Agent
    Group's Leader Described as Private Man Who Nurtured Mistrust of Government


    The leader of a Michigan militia group charged this week with conspiring to kill law-enforcement officers was described Tuesday as a private, family-oriented man who nurtured a festering mistrust of governmental authority, according to people close to the family.

    "On the inside of this man's brain, something evil lurks, and until you get to know him, you don't know it," said Andrea Harsh, who was engaged to David Brian Stone Sr. until the couple broke up last year.

    She described Mr. Stone, a trim 45-year-old man who wears his whitish hair cropped short over spectacles and a bushy gray mustache, as having a "bubbly personality." But he become consumed by the Hutaree, she said, a southeastern Michigan militia group that described its members as "Christian warriors."



    Photo of Thomas Piatek after his arrest.


    In an indictment Monday, federal authorities named Mr. Stone as leader of the Hutaree and accused him and eight members with plotting to spark an uprising against the U.S. government by killing police. Along with Mr. Stone, seven other men and one woman from Michigan, Ohio and Indiana are in being held without bond on weapons and sedition charges.

    The indictment said Hutaree had practiced attacks and other military maneuvers for more than a year, and had planned to kill a law-enforcement officer, then use homemade bombs to attack officers who attended the funeral.

    An undercover agent played a role in the investigation that led to Monday's indictments. Grand jury testimony by a law enforcement officer referred to an "undercover FBI agent" who worked on the case. The FBI declined to comment, but infiltration is a common tactic for law-enforcement officials targeting domestic militia groups.

    Those charged in the case included Mr. Stone's current wife, Tina Mae Stone, 44; as well as two sons, David Brian Stone Jr., 19; and Joshua Matthew Stone 21. Attorneys for Ms. Stone, David Jr. and Joshua declined to comment Tuesday; the senior Mr. Stone had no attorney as of late Tuesday.

    The Hutaree appears based at Mr. Stone's home, a pair of dilapidated house trailers near the intersection of dirt roads in rural Clayton, Michigan—population 303—about 85 miles southwest of Detroit. The yard this week held three cars, a dog house, debris and a gun leaning on an old washing machine.

    Family members and acquaintances said Mr. Stone doesn't curse, smoke or drink alcohol and was a strict disciplinarian with his sons, whom he home-schooled from a young age. While he rarely attended church, he studied the Bible nightly, memorizing long passages, said Ms. Harsh, his ex-fiance. Several scripture passages appear on the Hutaree Web site.

    On his page on the MySpace social-networking site, Mr. Stone, using the alias of "(RD) Merzonik," listed his interests as "GOD, Guns and Girls." He said he liked action and science-fiction movies and writes, "only dead people are true heroes ... so I guess I don't have any." He listed his hometown as, "Wasteland, America," and 73 MySpace friends include several state and county militias.

    Mr. Stone is listed as a 1982 graduate of Sand Creek High School on an alumni Web site. Donna Stone, his ex-wife, said she met Mr. Stone in the mid-1990s when she worked at a deli counter and he was a customer. They enjoyed the movies, she said, and he was charming and funny.

    But Mr. Stone increasingly displayed a stubborn streak, as well as an affinity for guns. Ms. Stone, 44, said she left him after about a decade together. "When he went from handguns to big guns, I said, 'Enough,' " she said.

    Court documents reveal an undercover FBI agent was part of the investigation of a Michigan-based Christian militia group that allegedly plotted to spark an uprising against the government by killing police officers. Plus, in a major push against the health overhaul, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce plans to spend $50 million to sway election outcomes; and the News Hub discusses how a six-year high in the number of stocks hitting 52-week highs is not necessarily a bad sign for stocks.

    Ms. Harsh, 40, said she began dating Mr. Stone in 2008 after meeting him at a plastics recycling factory where they worked. Mr. Stone showed her a Hutaree business card when they met, but otherwise said little about the group while they dated for several months.

    After moving in together, Ms. Harsh said, he spent hours on the computer, building the group's Web site and searching online for weapons. "His life was pretty much consumed by the Hutaree," she said.

    Mr. Stone despised authority, Ms. Harsh said, particularly "anyone with a badge." She said his temper finally drove her away last year. Mr. Stone remarried a few months later.

    Ron Gaydosh, 62, said he had known Mr. Stone for more than 15 years, and frequently invited the Stones over for barbecues. He described Mr. Stone as a "good guy," with "all-around good kids," and said the family enjoyed hunting, fishing and trapping.

    He said Mr. Stone was easily upset by talk of the government. "Some of the things that upset Dave also upset me," said Mr. Gaydosh, who belongs to another militia group with no ties to Hutaree. They frequently discussed survivalist techniques and poked fun at government officials, he said, but "there was never any violence planned."

    Mr. Gaydosh said Mr. Stone didn't like law enforcement officials driving by and shining lights at Mr. Stone's house, adding that he always referred to police as "feds." Mr. Stone also didn't like neighbors complaining about his target shooting, Mr. Gaydosh said.


    Trailers on property belonging to David Brian Stone, the leader of Midwest Christian militia Hutaree.

    It's not clear whether Mr. Stone had money troubles. Ms. Harsh said he was working at Demlow Products, an auto-industry supplier in Clayton; a person who answered the phone at the company declined to comment. Mr. Stone and his ex-wife, Donna Stone, filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy protection in 1999.

    Over the past couple of years, Mr. Stone attracted more Hutaree members, Ms. Harsh said: "His goal was to have all of the states have at least one group of Hutaree."

    But he scared off some potential recruits. Jon Killman said he visited Mr. Stone and his sons in December because he was interested in joining a militia to practice survival skills.

    He said Mr. Stone was a gracious host and offered him coffee. But soon Mr. Killman "got a bad vibe" as the Stones started joking about police officers who'd been shot in a coffee shop in Washington state.

    The family's dining room table was strewn with shotgun shells, Mr. Killman recalled. The elder Mr. Stone said the shells would be filled with gunpowder and tied to trip wires to simulate landmines.

    At first "they just seemed like a down-to-earth hillbilly family," he said. "After 20 minutes into the meeting, I realized these guys are not dealing with a full deck."

    Matt Savino, commander of the Lenawee Volunteer Michigan Militia near Mr. Stone's home, said in recent months Mr. Stone became "paranoid" and began asking other militia groups to join in military exercises.

    Mr. Stone began talking more about how "the federal government was coming down on them" and the need to be on the offensive and retain the element of surprise, Mr. Savino said.

    Ms. Harsh said Mr. Stone "always thought he could hide from the government. He thought he was invincible."
    So, Stone also lived like a pig, what with his trailer and trash.......

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Factually incorrect, as there were survivors there and some actually were able to return to the property, but that is irrelevant to the core distrust you have in our government and its institutions.

    The big issue (IMO) is that views in support of these people blacken the eye of all of the rest of us. There is no right to rebellion---or to even encourage rebellion, or to conspire to commit terroristic acts. The religion of the BGs is quite of no concern.
    Hopyard, I respect your opinion, however the more I learn about goverment and politicians from the local to federal level, I hate to say it , but there is not a whole lot of feel goodie in me as for as the level of honesty and legality of most politicians. That is after all the class of folks who runs the government and there is just so much money and corruption and outright lying and dishonesty that my trust level is pretty low.

    I just think it's awful funny that this kind of crap only seems to happen when a certain bunch and their appointees are the majority. The media points out the enemy (Christian right wingers, tea party, etc.) then some agent infiltrates a bunch of mentally deficient idiots like those in this group, and perhaps convinces them to say or do stupid things that get them to the point where they are now. Just like the agent did to Weaver. I guess we should trust everyone in government and media, except for the fact that the basis of these ivestigations is an agent pretending to be someone they are not and lying to get in, then havng the potential to plant ideas and evidence or who knows what else. That is pretty much the MO according to the Weaver story, is it not?

    If you knew what I know, after hearing first hand accounts from defense atttorneys involved in very high profile cases, you may not be so quick to believe that these folks are guilty either. Or even if they are guilty, they may have not completely acted on their own volition. These types of people are easily led and mentally weak, thus prime targets to be set up, yet if left alone, they may have lived out the rest of their days quite harmlessly blowing off steam and hot air.

    I am certainly not in suport of these people if they have truly done what they are accused of. However, guilty until proven innocent seems to be in favor these days. If we fail to accept the government line from the media right out of the gate, the we must be supporting terrorists? Is that what you are saying?

    As far as the rebellion angle, homeland security teaches that the founding fathers were the first terrorist group in the US, so there you have it, no right to rebellion. But if watching this and hearing it put that way doesn't make you uneasy about the potential for indoctrination, then what would?YouTube - FEMA Says Founding Fathers Are Terrorists

    You are correct that there was no right to rebellion then or now and, I certainly would not advocate any such behavior. I do have faith in the system, just not in some parts of it.

    Of course I think that any idiot who advocates violent attacks against cops and the gov is nuts, however advocating unpopular positions or offensive speach is not a crime. Such behavior is protected by the 1st amendment, just like porn. Just becuase these people are a bit nuts, that does not necessarily mean that we should immediately trust what the gov and media put out there in these sensational news broadcasts as being true about their actual threats or steps taken in furturance of crime, which is what is needed to convict them of an attempt or conspiracy.

    Just becuase they are poorly educated, impoverished, and live in a trailer doesn't mean they are guilty. Too many past events that are similar to this have proven that it is often a bunch of trumped up crap. Why, I am not sure. But I tend to think that someone wants people in general to believe that gun owning Christian conservatives are people who should be feared. Or perhaps that perception is already so prevalent within the media elite and, dare I say, within the high ranking levels of the federal law enforcement community and the current political ruling class, that it is just natural for them to seize on these types of people and stories.

    Propaganda: repeat a message often enough and people will believe it, Hitler tought us that lesson quite well. Currently, right of center Christian gun owners are the only people that you can openly stereotype and demonize, yet still maintain full political correctness. In 1930s Germany, that position was occupied by the Jews. In the pre 1960s in the US it was occupied by Blacks. Neither group's members faired well during those periods.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

  12. #41
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    re: sgtD

    Quote Originally Posted by sgtD View Post
    Hopyard, I respect your opinion, however the more I learn about goverment and politicians from the local to federal level, I hate to say it , but there is not a whole lot of feel goodie in me as for as the level of honesty and legality of most politicians.
    No one expect you to have a "whole lot of feel goodie" inside, but all of us expect you to adhere to the law.

    Those folks you are defending made a conscious decision to violate the law. They made a conscious decision to conspire to commit murder.

    They aren't getting out on bond and they won't be as lucky as Weaver and get off. Few are.

    That is after all the class of folks who runs the government and there is just so much money and corruption and outright lying and dishonesty that my trust level is pretty low.
    Trust is not the issue. Adhering to the rule of law is.

    I just think it's awful funny that this kind of crap only seems to happen when a certain bunch and their appointees are the majority. The media points out the enemy (Christian right wingers, tea party, etc.) then some agent infiltrates a bunch of mentally deficient idiots like those in this group, and perhaps convinces them to say or do stupid things that get them to the point where they are now.
    Being mentally deficient isn't an excuse for breaking the law. The jails are full of dummies.

    Just like the agent did to Weaver.
    Since you seem so fixated on this one case, I'm curious. Did you have some sort of personal stake in that event? Did you personally know the man before things went south? I'm just trying to get an idea of why that one event in the last 20 years or more of history has you so worked up.

    If you knew what I know, after hearing first hand accounts from defense atttorneys involved in very high profile cases, you may not be so quick to believe that these folks are guilty either.
    We'll find out won't we. Bet you will still be defending them even after they all plead out.

    Or even if they are guilty, they may have not completely acted on their own volition. These types of people are easily led and mentally weak, thus prime targets to be set up, yet if left alone, they may have lived out the rest of their days quite harmlessly blowing off steam and hot air.
    There is some truth to this. Dumb folks are easily lead. But you are insinuating that there was entrapment by the government. Might that have happened? Sure. Did it? We'll see as things progress through the court system.

    I am certainly not in suport of these people if they have truly done what they are accused of.
    Good. At least you made that part clear.

    However, guilty until proven innocent seems to be in favor these days. If we fail to accept the government line from the media right out of the gate, the we must be supporting terrorists? Is that what you are saying?
    The problem with what you say is that the government line starts with a Grand Jury indictment. A formal accusation by jurors who looked at the evidence. Bond will be set or not by a judge who will decide if they are a danger of flight and a danger to the community. I think they will be waiting for their trial behind bars.

    As far as the rebellion angle, homeland security teaches that the founding fathers were the first terrorist group in the US, so there you have it, no right to rebellion. But if watching this and hearing it put that way doesn't make you uneasy about the potential for indoctrination, then what would?YouTube - FEMA Says Founding Fathers Are Terrorists
    If you were British, they certainly were. That isn't deniable. There is an old saying, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. My question to you is, do you think these nuts were freedom fighters?

    You are correct that there was no right to rebellion then or now and, I certainly would not advocate any such behavior. I do have faith in the system, just not in some parts of it.
    Good. Now we are in agreement. But I do find this statement peculiarly at odds with your former comments about lack of trust in our institutions.

    Of course I think that any idiot who advocates violent attacks against cops and the gov is nuts, however advocating unpopular positions or offensive speach is not a crime.
    These guys didn't advocate unpopular positions. They planned an insurrection.

    Such behavior is protected by the 1st amendment, just like porn. Just becuase these people are a bit nuts, that does not necessarily mean that we should immediately trust what the gov and media put out there in these sensational news broadcasts as being true about their actual threats or steps taken in furturance of crime, which is what is needed to convict them of an attempt or conspiracy.
    At the arraignment today, as reported, the government claims to have seized illegal weapons while executing search warrants. The report wasn't clear as to what these were, but it specified "things you can't buy at a gun store."

    Just becuase they are poorly educated, impoverished, and live in a trailer doesn't mean they are guilty.
    Did you read something I wrote to make you think I meant that?

    Too many past events that are similar to this have proven that it is often a bunch of trumped up crap. Why, I am not sure. But I tend to think that someone wants people in general to believe that gun owning Christian conservatives are people who should be feared. Or perhaps that perception is already so prevalent within the media elite and, dare I say, within the high ranking levels of the federal law enforcement community and the current political ruling class, that it is just natural for them to seize on these types of people and stories.
    Do you think the government is not already populated by "gun owning Christian conservatives, e.g., Justice Thomas? Former VP Cheney?

    Propaganda: repeat a message often enough and people will believe it, Hitler tought us that lesson quite well. Currently, right of center Christian gun owners are the only people that you can openly stereotype and demonize, yet still maintain full political correctness. In 1930s Germany, that position was occupied by the Jews. In the pre 1960s in the US it was occupied by Blacks. Neither group's members faired well during those periods.
    Sounds like you feel persecuted for your beliefs. You do know, others have a fully protected right to oppose those beliefs and to be critical of them. PC works in both directions. But, what needs examination is whether or not the sense of persecution is realistic. There are probably 100 + christian churches in my community and I'd think their membership is in most cases at least half, gun owners. I don't see any evidence that their pastors are being dragged from the sanctuary, their members prohibited from gathering, and so forth. I see no mechanism in which members of a majority can become persecuted.

    Don't you think the very law officers and prosecutors who brought this case are themselves gun-owning christians? I hang out with cops who are right of center gun owning christians. I don't hear them advocating rebellion or complaining of persecution. See, there's something more going on, these arrests are about law enforcement, not about persecution. The persecution charge is a ruse to turn what is an ordinary law enforcement effort into something that appears to be bad. It is a back handed way of showing support for the law breaker instead of the rest of us who obey the laws.

  13. #42
    Member Array kdydak's Avatar
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    How about innocent until proven guilty in a court of law judged by the jury of your peers eh ? Too many LE have this attitude that "if they were innocent they would not have been arrested".

    Right now all we have are allegations by bunch of people (FBI/ATF) who have a vested interest in making a political statement to please their masters and try to shape public opinion to conform to their agenda.

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdydak View Post
    How about innocent until proven guilty in a court of law judged by the jury of your peers eh ? Too many LE have this attitude that "if they were innocent they would not have been arrested".

    Right now all we have are allegations by bunch of people (FBI/ATF) who have a vested interest in making a political statement to please their masters and try to shape public opinion to conform to their agenda.
    Yep. Innocent until proven guilty.

    The story smells.

    But it is accomplishing one thing: It's distracting attention from government healthcare and numerous lawsuits being filed.
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. — Winston Churchill

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    re: kdydak don't smear the undercover agent

    Quote Originally Posted by kdydak View Post
    Right now all we have are allegations by bunch of people (FBI/ATF)
    That's all you ever have in a criminal case. Allegations by a Grand Jury which has looked at the evidence and determined there is cause for indictment and for a trial to happen.

    who have a vested interest in making a political statement to please their masters and try to shape public opinion to conform to their agenda.
    And their agenda is?

    I would hope the only agenda by the agent was to do his duty to enforce the law and nothing more. To suggest otherwise is quite a smear on the undercover agent's character with no evidence of any kind to back the smear up.

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    re: Patti

    Quote Originally Posted by Patti View Post
    Yep. Innocent until proven guilty.

    The story smells.

    But it is accomplishing one thing: It's distracting attention from government healthcare and numerous lawsuits being filed.
    Wow. I've learned to expect that sort of comment from you.

    When you do your job as a Federal Employee are you doing it honestly or doing it for political purposes? Do you follow the rules?

    Thought so. You are an honest employee. Why would you think the agents involved have some nefarious purpose and are anything other than good conscientious civil servants just like the folks you work with.

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