FBI/Terror Task Force Raid - Page 4

FBI/Terror Task Force Raid

This is a discussion on FBI/Terror Task Force Raid within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Patti But it is accomplishing one thing: It's distracting attention from government healthcare and numerous lawsuits being filed. THIS...

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  1. #46
    Member Array CplVargas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patti View Post

    But it is accomplishing one thing: It's distracting attention from government healthcare and numerous lawsuits being filed.
    THIS


  2. #47
    Member Array Deuce130's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    That's all you ever have in a criminal case. Allegations by a Grand Jury which has looked at the evidence and determined there is cause for indictment and for a trial to happen.



    And their agenda is?

    I would hope the only agenda by the agent was to do his duty to enforce the law and nothing more. To suggest otherwise is quite a smear on the undercover agent's character with no evidence of any kind to back the smear up.
    Has anyone confirmed it as an actual undercover FBI agent? Or is it some type of informant?

  3. #48
    Senior Member Array ep1953's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Easy solution here. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Same as for any other criminal activity.

    Stay away from folks who advocate rebellion against the US and don't participate in such talk, and it is extremely unlikely anyone will come looking for you at your house to arrest you for seditious conspiracy

    Btw, the conspiracy involved more than 3 people. Nine were arrested and one is being sought.

    There is a difference between shouting "fire" in a burning theater and "fire" in one that isn't burning. Think about that a bit. It applies to the
    folks who fantasize some manner of armed rebellion because they imagine their government to be tyrannical. Being nuts is no excuse for being a criminal.
    Well sir, there have been a number of times when government has acted in a tyrannical manner in the United States. Most recent that comes to mind is the confiscation of firearms in New Orleans during hurricane Katrina.

    I do support the United States but I also am wary of those who seek power for the sake of power and would have us believe the Constitution is a "living document" subject to contemporary interpretation rather than meaning exactly what it says.

  4. #49
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    No one expect you to have a "whole lot of feel goodie" inside, but all of us expect you to adhere to the law..
    I do obey the law and always have sir, I certainly hope you are not insinuating otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Those folks you are defending made a conscious decision to violate the law. They made a conscious decision to conspire to commit murder..
    No, they have been accused of doing those things. The attitude of conclusory pre-trial public conviction that you display here based on nothing more than a media story is exactly what I am against and what I am complaining about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    They aren't getting out on bond and they won't be as lucky as Weaver and get off. Few are...
    Thank you Judge Hopyard for your advance ruling in this case. I guess that settles it.

    I am a strong supporter of the law and law enforcement and have freinds who are cops, lawyers, politicians etc., however the issue is not settled until the full process of the system has been caried out.

    99.9 % of LEOs are good folks, but I don't personally know the ones involved in this investigation and am fully aware of the power of the state when it is brought to bear against citizens, especially the poor and uneducated. I respect the system of law but am also well aware of its complexity. A system that is designed to enofrce the law for the benefit of all citizens, yet has the potential for abuse. I will never forget that this system can and has been used by people with malice and agendas to persecute unpopular segments of the population. Thus I will generally take the side of the citizen until the process has ended in a fair trial and a jury of their peers who has heard and seen all of the evidence on both sides makes a decision as to their guilt or innocence. That is what we are supposed to do I think, since we are to presume innocence until proven guilty. That is also why the burden of proof is always on the state. A citizen need not prove their innocence, our system demands that innocence be presumed and that is what I am doing. If that somehow seems un-American to you, I'm sorry.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

  5. #50
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    Settle down gents, settle down.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  6. #51
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdydak View Post
    How about innocent until proven guilty in a court of law judged by the jury of your peers eh ? Too many LE have this attitude that "if they were innocent they would not have been arrested".

    Right now all we have are allegations by bunch of people (FBI/ATF) who have a vested interest in making a political statement to please their masters and try to shape public opinion to conform to their agenda.
    As someone who has been lucky enough to set on a few juries. More than just LEO's believe this. That is what you should worry about.

    Michael

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    As someone who has been lucky enough to set on a few juries. More than just LEO's believe this. That is what you should worry about.

    Michael
    Let me get this straight; we are now advocating that LEO's should not think the suspect is guilty that they arrest?
    "Just blame Sixto"

  8. #53
    Member Array Deuce130's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Let me get this straight; we are now advocating that LEO's should not think the suspect is guilty that they arrest?
    I think what he's saying is that you should be worried that MORE than just LEOs think this. I.E., juries, reporters, bloggers, etc. It's one thing for LEOs to think someone is guilty, indeed, it's often part of the arrest sequence. The rest of us, however, should share a presumption of innocence. At the very least, the jury pool and presiding judge should.

  9. #54
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    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  10. #55
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    re: deuce

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce130 View Post
    I think what he's saying is that you should be worried that MORE than just LEOs think this. I.E., juries, reporters, bloggers, etc. It's one thing for LEOs to think someone is guilty, indeed, it's often part of the arrest sequence. The rest of us, however, should share a presumption of innocence. At the very least, the jury pool and presiding judge should.
    There is no doubt that mistakes get made. There is no doubt some arrested and charged are factually innocent. However, the presumption of innocence is on the judicial system and on the selected jurors. The rest of us are all perfectly free to speculate and state opinions about the accused. This happens daily on talk tv shows and talk radio. How many commentators have convicted Peterson (Petersen?) of murdering his two wives? How many convicted the other Peterson (in Calif) of murdering his wife before the jury trial.

    You know what? Peterson (the ex-cop), he might walk. Doesn't mean he didn't do it.

    For discussion purposes it isn't necessary to assume innocence, and it certainly is wrong to assume that the authorities only made the arrest because of some hidden political agenda or hidden religious bias.

    My opinion, the arrest was made because these guys did something that justified the initial attention of the police and the subsequent indictment. I'm not going to smear the undercover agent. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt until something comes out at trial that he engaged in entrapment or fabrication. I'm not going to attack the motives of the officials as political. I think their motives were plain old fashioned law enforcement and nothing more.

    Tyranny some yell. Yeah, sure. In a country of 300 million some bad things happen and people generalize from the specific to the general and falsely conclude we live in a tyranny instead of a free country. Then they hype that idea in their minds and talk themselves into the notion that therefore rebellion is OK. Well it isn't.

    And we have laws on the books to protect ourselves from people like that.

    And we have good LEOs who do the dangerous work of protecting us from people like that.

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    Lots of speculation, darn few facts. I'm surprised that there have been no photo ops by the LEOs of the pipe bombs.
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

  12. #57
    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Wow. I've learned to expect that sort of comment from you.

    When you do your job as a Federal Employee are you doing it honestly or doing it for political purposes? Do you follow the rules?

    Thought so. You are an honest employee. Why would you think the agents involved have some nefarious purpose and are anything other than good conscientious civil servants just like the folks you work with.
    Huh?

    Why the attack on me, Hopyard?

    Are you accusing me of saying these fine officers are dishonest? Where in the world did I post that?

    What political purposes are you referring to?

    Don't you agree that these people are innocent until proven guilty?

    I think you over extremely sensitive about this particular arrest, and I find that to be very strange.
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Winston Churchill

  13. #58
    Ex Member Array Cold Warrior's Avatar
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    It don't bother me none, if they pester and arrest and confiscate the guns of these Christians, militia men, Minutemen, Tea Pary people, SWAT and SpecOp wannabes, hunters and their other gun-loving flag-waving patriotic sisters and brothers...until we FINALLY satisfy the Blolomturd Herd and Brady Bunch and the Southern Poverty Law Center; because they will finally quit boohooing, suing, whining and pestering us .22 caliber target shooters, and leave us alone and let us have fun with our guns inside and outside our homes...and they will be quittin', unlike they did in Britain.

  14. #59
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Let me get this straight; we are now advocating that LEO's should not think the suspect is guilty that they arrest?
    The point I was making was that some jurors also think this way. I was trying to get across that this is what we should really be concerned with. I have heard the "they wouldn't arrest him if he wasn't guilty" line on two of the juries I have sat on.

    Michael

  15. #60
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    From their website

    As christians we all are a part of the Souls of the Body of Christ, the one true church of Christ. Not any specific man made building or any man controlled organization. This is the belief of the Hutaree soldier, as should the belief of all followers in Christ be.

    We believe that one day, as prophecy says, there will be an Anti-Christ. All christians must know this and prepare, just as Christ commanded. Luke 22:35-37, And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?” So they said, “Nothing.” 36, Then he said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37, “For I say to you that this which is written must be accomplished in me: ‘And He was numbered with transgressors,’ For the things concerning Me have an end.” This clearly states the reason for the training and preparation of the Hutaree.

    Jesus wanted us to be ready to defend ourselves using the sword and stay alive using equipment. The only thing on earth to save the testimony and those who follow it, are the members of the testimony, til the return of Christ in the clouds. We, the Hutaree, are prepared to defend all those who belong to Christ and save those who aren’t. We will still spread the word, and fight to keep it, up to the time of the great coming.

    Being Hutaree is to stay the testimony of Christ alive, and follow a motto, John15:13, “Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.” We are hoping that through this website we can reach out to those who have not the word of God and those who are lost in there ideas of Christ. Many of the things Christ said would happen have happened and some things are still in the works of happening.

    We all must know that we all carry a cross and a soldiers cross is just as heavy as any other. Just as Jesus did we must also carry our cross to our destination our life abounds us to. All people are givin a destination by God’s will and have to continue there walk to there own golgotha. But many people, even christians don’t agree with the things we do but all we have to say is, we will not argue over the Bible, read it for what it is. We believe only what the Bible says and not on only philosophy, as many christians of this day do. Christ is our king of kings and top general of all things, for we are not of this world but we live in it.

    The Hutaree will one day see its enemy and meet him on the battlefield if so God wills it. We will reach out to those who are yet blind in the last days of the kingdoms of men and bring them to life in Christ. Daniel 11:32-35, “Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33, “And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. 34, “Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join them by intrigue. 35 “And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.”

    You can find the news we find in some of the places we have in the information sources section. Also you can get gear from some of the choice places we have on gear links. Thanks for coming to Hutaree.com and please come again. Oh and don’t forget that you can write us through the contact us link on the Hutaree homepage. Once again thanks for visiting Hutaree.com and may Christ bless you widely.
    These people are grade-a nuts. i don't have any problem with talking to an imaginary friend but these people are almost on the same level as islamic terrorist groups.

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