This is a discussion on FBI/Terror Task Force Raid within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by n3ss From their website These people are grade-a nuts. i don't have any problem with talking to an imaginary friend but these ...
You may call them nuts, but I have heard things at least as out there in mainstream churches over the years. Christians believe in what is in the Bible, especially what is attributed directly to Jesus. The end times is part of almost every religion I know about, so nothing strange there. None of what they have on their website is even Old Testament (where most of the really crazy sounding things are). As a matter of fact, strip away the Biblical references and wording and the part quoted off their website isn't that different than what people spout off here and at other gun or survivalist forums.
Now the government believes it has a case against 9 of the members of the organization. If the government can prove beyond a reasonable doubt they committed a crime, good for them, they are doing the job we pay taxes for. If they can't, they had better have a good reason to be using resources on this rather than elsewhere (like the US-Mexican border).
I'm guessing a number of individuals in an otherwise harmless organization took the venting about the local government a little too far into the realm of conspiracy to commit murder. But they are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
These people are grade-a nuts. i don't have any problem with talking to an imaginary friend but these people are almost on the same level as islamic terrorist groups.
Yep, they even have an "Evil Jew" forum. BTW: They were denied bail.
Last edited by n3ss; April 6th, 2010 at 04:20 PM.
Bottom line, these folks either plotted rebellion (engaged in seditious conspiracy) or they did not; or perhaps they did a little but didn't mean it or realize the severe nature of the crime.
Judges and juries will decide.
Does it really matter what they believe or don't believe if they are eventually convicted and sentenced?
Why should we care what criminals think?
Do we need to concern ourselves with their "reasons" for being criminals?
If guilty, "nuts" is sufficient explanation. And nuts can hate for no reason whatsoever.
Not so. That crap was on their forum when I visited it months ago.Their forum was hacked, pretty sure title was added after the fact.
If what you are trying to say is that I shouldn't call them criminals because they have not yet been convicted, fine. They are not convicts.
They will be. Soon. "Convict" is the descriptor visitors to our state prison (and no doubt the staff) use to refer to the folks who live inside. The term is deliberately chosen. It connotes something more than "prisoner." It connotes that a judgment has been made about their guilt or innocence.
The "had our founding fathers lost" comment implies that there is a possibility these guys Hutaree militia (if they really plotted to kill officers as part of an armed rebellion) might be justified. No. No way. See, here's the difference between what our founders did and what these guys did.
Our founders being at the end of the rope in dealing with a tyrannical government published an explanation for the rebellion---Declaration of Independence-- and knew full well that they could pay at the end of the rope, but acknowledged that "a decent respect for the opinions of mankind" requires them to state their reason.
These guys Hs whatever, only imagine that they live under a tyrannical government. It is delusion. They don't. We don't.
All those Governors who leave their annual meeting moaning and groaning about this or that done by the Federal Government, and complaining that the poor states have no power, are just blowing hot air to stir the political winds.
Anytime that they can convince their legislatures to call for a constitutional convention, and when enough of them can convince their state legislatures that things need to change, they have the power to stop moaning and groaning, stop political posturing and demagoguery, convene a constitutional convention, and change things. That's power and not tyranny.
Of course it is more fun to complain.
OK, that is long, but the point is there is no tyranny, and hence no possible justification for rebellion as at the time of our revolution when there was real tyranny. Hence the comparison is flat wrong.
If you think being made to pay taxes your legislators voted for (taxation with representation) is tyranny, you have no idea.
Tyranny--- do you think you live in Argentina during the time of the disappeared? That's tyranny.
Do you think you live in Nicaragua or Panama of the 1970/80s, or possibly Venezuela today? That's tyranny.
We don't have tyranny here. We still have representative government, fifty independent state legislatures and governors; fifty independent state judicial systems; and a Federal government with representatives apportioned by State (Senate) or population (House). We have an independent Federal judiciary which is responsive in its own way to the popular viewpoint on many issues. That doesn't sound like tyranny to me.
Added later just for grins: My aunt visited Soviet Ukraine (under Stalin) in 1936 to see my Great Grandfather. They had to meet and talk in a closet for fear of being reported and jailed. That's tyranny. We ain't there, and are nowhere close.
You missed my point, evidently. I had assumed you meant to say "Who cares what the Hutaree members have to say..." Apparently that is not what you meant. You truly do believe that anything uttered by a criminal should automatically be discounted. Simply being a criminal, in my book, is not grounds enough to dismiss opinions or ideas. It surely doesn't help get your point across, but words should be judged on their merits, not necessarily on who said them. Like I said, Nelson Mandela was a convicted criminal and lots of people listened to him. I certainly do not compare the Hutaree to Washington and the gang - my point was that had the rebellion been crushed, Thomas Jefferson would have been a criminal. His ideas, however, would still have merit.
So....what brought you to their website a few months ago?
A friend in a MI militia group has known about the Hutaree for some time. They were the laughing stock of the area.
We don't live in an unconstitutional tyranny. That idea gets repeated a lot by a lot of folks, but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
Come back and tell me about tyranny when the Supreme court and Appeals court justices have all been jailed. Or when the House Speaker "disappears." Or when an idiot general stands in the threshold of The White House and declares "I'm in charge here now." Oops, that one already happened. At least he had the grace to get out of the way once someone told him he was a fool.
Are judges disappearing?
Are elected leaders disappearing?
Are laws declared unconstitutional by the Supremes being enforced against their ruling?
Are any of us here not participating because we fear being traced, hounded, jailed?
Is the military under civilian control?
Tyranny? Get a grip!
Let's be sensible about what the word tyranny means and what the phrase "constitutional government" means. We have the latter, not the former.
We are so very very very far from anything that would justify armed rebellion that anyone thinking we should be prepared (as the militia folks seem to feel) needs to be doing some serious rethinking of what they spend their mental time and energy on.
Again, make no mistake about it. Plotting or planning or encouraging others or supporting others in plans to rebel is the crime of sedition. It has a 20 year penalty.
Do you think "righting" our country's present warts are worth 20 years of your life or your life itself? I don't.