Mexican Gangs.. have permanent bases in Arizona: Merged

[Hopyard]

Therein lies the crux of the problem.

What you would consider inhumane I consider a good start.

Hanging and disembowelment were the norm at one time. Sadly it is not the norm in this day and age. I bring this to light to point out one thing, one man's inhumanity is another man's compassion. Most would consider a bullet to the head as humane if compared to hangng and disembowlment.

Biker

That you think it is sad that hanging and disembowelment are no longer practiced, pretty much makes it unrealistic for us to continue a discussion with any hope of it coming to agreement.

There are several different issues which keep getting confused and joined in these discussions, and maybe if we learned to separate the issues we could get rational---instead of hoping for a return to barbarity.

1) Being here undocumented presently is (depending on who answers the question) either not a crime at all or it is a Federal misdemeanor.

There was a panel discussion about these issues on C-Span the other
day and one lawyer asserted being here undocumented was strictly
a civil not criminal issue. Homeland Security Head Napolitano
corrected him, and stated it was a Federal misdemeanor.

Either way, hardly something you get disemboweled for. And CONGRESS is perfectly free at any time it wishes to raise the level of the crime to that of a felony. They have chosen to not do that.

2) A distinction needs to be drawn between the drug gang involved undocumented aliens who are committing felonies, and the folks who are just trying to survive. The old saying, different strokes for different folks applies to how harshly these two different groups of people should be treated.

3) None of us know who to believe regarding the severity of all of these
problems. Maybe this is the biggest real issue. Fox exaggerates. DEA and Homeland Security spin, if not exaggerate. Politicians spin and exaggerate and lie. The sad result is that the public forms opinions which may have no basis in reality. Congress forms opinions and law which may have no basis in reality.

4) None of this garbage would be happening if two conditions didn't exist--- and both are our own dang fault. 1) Employers find it beneficial to hire undocumented individuals 2) Drug users need the supply from across the border.

Deal with these two issues and most of the illegal migration problem will disappear.

5) Mexico has to be put on notice that it must stop encouraging illegal migration. Their attitude seems to be that the way to prosperity is to encourage their poorest and their worst to move across the border. I've no idea how we might pressure them to think differently, or reward them for acting differently, but then neither did Colin Powell when he was George's Secretary of State. In other words, it is a tough issue.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[ksholder]

5) Mexico has to be put on notice that it must stop encouraging illegal migration. Their attitude seems to be that the way to prosperity is to encourage their poorest and their worst to move across the border. I've no idea how we might pressure them to think differently, or reward them for acting differently, but then neither did Colin Powell when he was George's Secretary of State. In other words, it is a tough issue.

Hopyard - I agree that we need to put Mexico on notice. This is not, however, what Congress and the President did a few weeks ago with Calderon addressed Congress, dressed them down and got a standing ovation from our elected representatives.

[xpertz1]

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[Hopyard]

Hopyard - I agree that we need to put Mexico on notice. This is not, however, what Congress and the President did a few weeks ago with Calderon addressed Congress, dressed them down and got a standing ovation from our elected representatives.

True enough, but with the qualifying reminder that GWB did likewise with Mr. Vincente Fox.

Just noting this fact, because the migration problem shouldn't be thought of as partisan. There are plenty of labor groups in this country upset by the competition for jobs and the downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of "conservative" business groups which like the present situation so well they would grant another blanket amnesty and increase all manner of immigrant quotas and create all manner of new visa categories; All, based on false claims that we don't have enough workers here. And they have the gall to say that with a straight face while official unemployment approximates 10% and real unemployment is believed to approximate 17%.

[Night Flight]

People that don't live close to the border don't realise it's more like North Mexico,until Illegals try to move farther North they are ignored unless they break the law,Falfurrias Border Patrol checkpoint on 281 highway is about 60 miles north of the border

Right on, the people up north have no idea what is going on in TX, N.M., and AZ. They think FOX is slanting the news, they better wake up and realize that FOX is the only ones, until lately, that told of the killings down here. They don't profile down here, they don't even traffic stop for obvious safety violations on their vehicles.

[BikerRN]

That you think it is sad that hanging and disembowelment are no longer practiced, pretty much makes it unrealistic for us to continue a discussion with any hope of it coming to agreement.

I never expected, nor do I look for, agreement.

There are several different issues which keep getting confused and joined in these discussions, and maybe if we learned to separate the issues we could get rational---instead of hoping for a return to barbarity.

I am only looking at one issue. Illegal Aliens are here illegally and a drain on our economy and ruining my way of life.

1) Being here undocumented presently is (depending on who answers the question) either not a crime at all or it is a Federal misdemeanor.

There was a panel discussion about these issues on C-Span the other
day and one lawyer asserted being here undocumented was strictly
a civil not criminal issue. Homeland Security Head Napolitano
corrected him, and stated it was a Federal misdemeanor.

Nappy Head was correct this time.

Either way, hardly something you get disemboweled for. And CONGRESS is perfectly free at any time it wishes to raise the level of the crime to that of a felony. They have chosen to not do that.

There are already too many illegals in our correctional system. It's time to make the punishment for the crime of being here illegally harsh enough that people would reconsider doing so.

2) A distinction needs to be drawn between the drug gang involved undocumented aliens who are committing felonies, and the folks who are just trying to survive. The old saying, different strokes for different folks applies to how harshly these two different groups of people should be treated.

Treat them all equally, as we are all equal under the law, or should be. I don't care about the survival of a mexican, honduran, or any other nationality when it drags my country down in the dirt.

3) None of us know who to believe regarding the severity of all of these
problems. Maybe this is the biggest real issue. Fox exaggerates. DEA and Homeland Security spin, if not exaggerate. Politicians spin and exaggerate and lie. The sad result is that the public forms opinions which may have no basis in reality. Congress forms opinions and law which may have no basis in reality.

I've formed my opinions based on what I see on a daily basis with my own eyes. Will some otherwise decent people be caught up in the fray? Absolutely, but then we always throw the baby out with the bathwater, so it seems. So this would be no different, IMO.

4) None of this garbage would be happening if two conditions didn't exist--- and both are our own dang fault. 1) Employers find it beneficial to hire undocumented individuals 2) Drug users need the supply from across the border.

I've been advocating the death penalty for narcotic convictions too. There is no such thing as a "harmless drug".

Deal with these two issues and most of the illegal migration problem will disappear.

No, I sadly think you are looking for Utopia, and that doesn't exist.

5) Mexico has to be put on notice that it must stop encouraging illegal migration. Their attitude seems to be that the way to prosperity is to encourage their poorest and their worst to move across the border. I've no idea how we might pressure them to think differently, or reward them for acting differently, but then neither did Colin Powell when he was George's Secretary of State. In other words, it is a tough issue.

Mexico needs it's northern door slammed shut, by lethal force if necessary.

I find it sad that our elected represenatives are trying to look at this from a "one world" view. Whatever happened to America First?

Biker

[zacii]

There's two separate crimes in discussion, here.

There the act of immigrating illegally, a Federal misdemeanor.

Then there's the more sinister crimes that seem to accompany it, drugs, human trafficking, etc.

The latter crimes are the ones that beg for capital punishment, like Biker suggested.

The problem isn't just the illegal trespassing, it's all the crime that comes with it. Now, the trespassers have become armed squatters.

At what point do they become an invading force? Never mind who's paying them; they've set up an armed camp with the obvious intention to carry on their illegal activities.

So, at what point? 10 men? 100 men?

What crimes have to be committed, before it's considered an outrage against the whole country? 1 murder? 1 kidnapping? 1 sex slave? Or multipliers of hundreds?

It's time to recognize that illegal trespassing is the beginning of all the rest. If we do not resist violently, then the violent gangs will commit violence against us.

[OPFOR]

irregardless

Ah, the pain, the pain.... Make it stop!

[zacii]

irregardless

Ah, the pain, the pain.... Make it stop!

[Tom G]

The USA should bulldoze a 200 yard strip the length of the border and set up check points and use air craft to patrol the strip. Any one crossing this strip would be shot on sight. This would include aircraft incoming from Mexico who did not identify them selves. The man power for this could be supplied by all the returning GI's returning from the middle east. It would help the GI's coming home looking for jobs. What do you think?

[21bubba]

Ah, the pain, the pain.... Make it stop!

Yeah I'm sorry. This is coming from the guy(me) who's pet peeve is "hot water heater".

[ksholder]

The USA should bulldoze a 200 yard strip the length of the border and set up check points and use air craft to patrol the strip. Any one crossing this strip would be shot on sight. This would include aircraft incoming from Mexico who did not identify them selves. The man power for this could be supplied by all the returning GI's returning from the middle east. It would help the GI's coming home looking for jobs. What do you think?

I think you put a fence on both sides of your strip and mine the sucker.

[ksholder]

True enough, but with the qualifying reminder that GWB did likewise with Mr. Vincente Fox.

Just noting this fact, because the migration problem shouldn't be thought of as partisan. There are plenty of labor groups in this country upset by the competition for jobs and the downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of "conservative" business groups which like the present situation so well they would grant another blanket amnesty and increase all manner of immigrant quotas and create all manner of new visa categories; All, based on false claims that we don't have enough workers here. And they have the gall to say that with a straight face while official unemployment approximates 10% and real unemployment is believed to approximate 17%.

Hopyard - please refresh my memory. I remember Fox and Bush getting on famously, but I don't remember Fox criticizing our government, state or local and telling us how we should govern our country. Am I forgetting something? Could be, I frequently can't remember why I went to the kitchen from my office.

[Hopyard]

Hopyard - please refresh my memory. I remember Fox and Bush getting on famously, but I don't remember Fox criticizing our government, state or local and telling us how we should govern our country. Am I forgetting something? Could be, I frequently can't remember why I went to the kitchen from my office.

I didn't say they didn't get along. They got on fine, exactly as you say. Fox was more careful about what he said. Why would he criticize us when things were going exactly as he wished? People export from there to here.

[21bubba]

Why can't some of us stay on the topic? You remember armed gangs on U.S. soil.

I believe as a show of our intents,commitment and our focus, we as a country should demonstrate to these gangs our ability to take them off of this planet. They have shown their intent and their resolve so why shouldn't we.

If we did this correctly no anchor babies would be harmed. That way we wouldn't upset SOME on here.