Scorecard -- Did we win?

Scorecard -- Did we win?

This is a discussion on Scorecard -- Did we win? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/we...er=rss&emc=rss AS the last officially designated American combat forces left Iraq, television cameras caught the exultation of a soldier finally heading home. We won! he ...

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Thread: Scorecard -- Did we win?

  1. #1
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    Question Scorecard -- Did we win?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/we...er=rss&emc=rss

    AS the last officially designated American combat forces left Iraq, television cameras caught the exultation of a soldier finally heading home.
    We won! he yelled. Its over! America, we brought democracy to Iraq!
    Which naturally raises an intriguing and provocative question: Did we win? Seven years later, after all the spilled blood, after all the roadside bombs and sectarian strife, after all the terror and torment, did the United States actually win the war in Iraq?
    SNIP
    Interesting read.
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    Wow. For a second I thought that article came from The Onion.

    The collective "WE" will still be there for years...

  3. #3
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    I would say YES

    1. The Iran-Iraq War in which approximately 5,000 Iranians were killed with chemical weapons between 1983-1988, plus the several thousand Iranian prisoners of war killed by Hussein. (In the "legal" part of the war between these two powerful Muslim nations, 200,000 Iraqis died and over 300,000 Iranians died. They are not counted in Scheffer's report on war crimes.)

    2. The dropping of chemical weapons on the Kurdish city of Halaja in Iraq in March of 1988, that killed over 5,000 civilians. The U.S. government has satellite photos of the carnage. The Kurds have since reported that five to seven thousand people of 80,000 inhabitants died immediately and a further 20,000 to 30,000 were injured, many severely. Initial studies indicate approximately 52% of current inhabitants were exposed at the time of the chemical warhead attack on Halaja.

    3. The Anfal campaigns, also against the Kurds, when Chemical Ali, Hussein's cousin, was given the orders to slaughter the Kurds. Somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 Kurds were killed. Scheffer called it genocide.

    4. The invasion and occupation of Kuwait on August 2, 1990 in which Saddam Hussein's forces killed more than 1000 Kuwaiti nationals, and an uncounted number from other nations while launching the environmental crime "such as the destruction of oil wells in Kuwait's oil fields. War crimes also were committed against other nationals in an "effort to coerce their governments into pro-Iraqi policies."

    5. In 1991, when the United Nations failed to approve the actual removal of Saddam Hussein from power, from 30,000 to 60,000 Iraqi civilians, mostly Kurds and Shiites were killed.

    6. In the early 1990s, Saddam Hussein drained the southern marshes, which deprived over 100,000 people of their livelihood and their ability to live on land their ancestors had lived on for thousands of years.

    7. The ethnic cleansing of Persians and other non-Arabs from Iraq,

    8. The killing, torturing and raping of political opponents and their wives and daughters and the disappearance of 300,000 people, the remains of many of whom have been found in mass graves following Iraq's liberation in 2003.

    9. And, according to a booklet written by the U.S. Agency for International Development approximately 400,000 Iraqi civilians were seized by Saddam Hussein's various "security" organizations and simply never heard from again

    Iraq, a country approximately the size of California, but with only 2/3rd its population, suffered more than a million violent deaths under Saddam Hussein's regime. That would average out at about 50,000 deaths a year in a population of 25 million before the Americans got involved. In the two years since the Americans have been fighting in Iraq, 13,650 Iraqis, have been killed, many of them by terrorist attacks by their own countrymen. Others were by military action. That averages out at 6, 825 deaths per year in a population of 25 million.

    So, the mostly American liberation of Iraq dropped the rate of violent deaths from 50,000 a year under Saddam Hussein to 6,825 a year with the Americans in Baghdad. What Kennedy has labeled as American "savagery" has REDUCED deaths from violence in Iraq by 87%.

    Not bad for a quagmire.

    Thank you to every one of you on this forum who served over there honorably. You did a great job!

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    We didn't win and never came close. The end of Germany and Japan was winning. The insurgents are still conducting business as usual and eventually Iraq will go the way of Vietnam. Obama and the rest of the politicians don't believe in winning, they believe in running.
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    It's too early to tell. We're still there in large numbers, we're still fighting the insurgency, we are still trying to solve the Sunni-Shiite-Jihadi-Kurdish aspects of the peace, still attempting to rebuild the institutions, government, economic systems, education systems, etc. I think any talk of winning or losing is premature. Our end goal is a relatively stable, peaceful, democratic Iraq. We'll see if it ever happens, but we're certainly not finished yet.

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    This is only my personal opinion, but I think we did make a change for the better in that country, and the region, so I'd consider that a win. Now we just need to keep supporting our allies in that country so they can build it up with minimal help from us.
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    at least we got rid of Saddam..I just fear who may take his place.
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    Sorry, but no.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    at least we got rid of Saddam..I just fear who may take his place.
    People tend to forget, we put him there.......

    Did we win? Not yet, and I doubt if we'll know for sure one way or another for years.
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeyelcpl View Post
    this is only my personal opinion, but i think we did make a change for the better in that country, and the region, so i'd consider that a win. Now we just need to keep supporting our allies in that country so they can build it up with minimal help from us.
    bingo!



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    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeyeLCPL View Post
    This is only my personal opinion, but I think we did make a change for the better in that country, and the region, so I'd consider that a win. Now we just need to keep supporting our allies in that country so they can build it up with minimal help from us.
    I'm with you on this one buckeye. We made a difference, that's what I am looking at here.

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    Does anyone really win? You may defeat an enemy, force them to change a style of government, or as in the case of Saddam, remove them from power. But at what cost? How many billions of dollars spent? How many young men maimed and killed? How many families torn apart and destroyed? Sorry, in my opinion, there is no winner in a war, only survivors.

    I speak as a career military man of 24 years. I served proudly and would do so again.
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    No we did not win. I believe that the best we can hope for is a stalemate such as we have in Korea and we have not even reached that point yet.

    Michael

  14. #14
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    Very well said sir.
    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Does anyone really win? You may defeat an enemy, force them to change a style of government, or as in the case of Saddam, remove them from power. But at what cost? How many billions of dollars spent? How many young men maimed and killed? How many families torn apart and destroyed? Sorry, in my opinion, there is no winner in a war, only survivors.

    I speak as a career military man of 24 years. I served proudly and would do so again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Does anyone really win? You may defeat an enemy, force them to change a style of government, or as in the case of Saddam, remove them from power. But at what cost? How many billions of dollars spent? How many young men maimed and killed? How many families torn apart and destroyed? Sorry, in my opinion, there is no winner in a war, only survivors.

    I speak as a career military man of 24 years. I served proudly and would do so again.
    I hate the saying but... THIS

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