More Mexican shootings

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    More Mexican shootings

    We are riding to Zapata Tx on Saturday,they got the best chicken fried steak I ever ate,then I read this and decide I better load up the backup gun and xtra mags for the 1911.There seem to be more reports of Mexican choppers invading our border and it's becoming more often.Makes you wonder why Washington hasn't issued a warning

    http://www.valleycentral.com/news/story.aspx?id=506141
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    We are riding to Zapata Tx on Saturday,they got the best chicken fried steak I ever ate,then I read this and decide I better load up the backup gun and xtra mags for the 1911.There seem to be more reports of Mexican choppers invading our border and it's becoming more often.Makes you wonder why Washington hasn't issued a warning

    http://www.valleycentral.com/news/story.aspx?id=506141
    Is it possible they got authorization to enter our air space? Might there be some standing agreement that no one will get upset about minor overlfy of the border--- e.g., when our commercial and military flights stray over do we want the other side to get upset and shoot them down. Just maybe, there is a bi-national agreement on stuff like this.

    In any case, if there were not such an agreement you'd expect our State Department to speak up; and that would become national news instead of stuff tucked away in a local paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    We are riding to Zapata Tx on Saturday,they got the best chicken fried steak I ever ate,then I read this and decide I better load up the backup gun and xtra mags for the 1911.There seem to be more reports of Mexican choppers invading our border and it's becoming more often.Makes you wonder why Washington hasn't issued a warning

    http://www.valleycentral.com/news/story.aspx?id=506141

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    In any case, if there were not such an agreement you'd expect our State Department to speak up; and that would become national news instead of stuff tucked away in a local paper.


    Hopyard - are you serious??? The MSM is not going to get their knickers in a knot if Mexican Army choppers invade the US - you simply will not hear about it from them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post


    Hopyard - are you serious??? The MSM is not going to get their knickers in a knot if Mexican Army choppers invade the US - you simply will not hear about it from them.
    Why make this about tv shows and politics. Do you seriously think that between FAA, CBP, and Norad, official US govt. folks don't know what is going on.

    Its far more sensible to believe that these things are spotted, known about, and let alone because of long standing binational agreements, or instantaneous command decisions.

    Do you want us shooting down Mexican military assets involved in curtailing the drug gangs? That's what it sounds like.
    At least that would be the implication of what some have posted here. Do you want Mexico to shoot down every private plane that strays their way? That would probably put some crop dusters out of bizz fast.

    Bottom line, helicopters, private planes, military planes can easily get a few hundred yards off course and that hardly constitutes an invasion. The entry certainly doesn't even deserve thought if the entry was authorized. And of course, none of us know, one way or another that it wasn't authorized.

    Just playing devils advocate here, but think about it. Do you think our CBP/FAA and NORAD officials would deny the Mexican military brief entry in furtherance of their war on the drug czars, given our interest in the Mexican government winning that war? If they did, what would the next day's headline from the right wing look like? "US government interferes in apprehension of drug lord"

    Invasion is a bit of hyperbole for this scenario.

    Here's a url to a list of US Mexico binational agreements. Don't know if any of these
    cover the situation you are concerned with. I'll leave it to someone else to figure out. I'm just offering an hypothesis as to how it might be that what happened isn't really a big deal and is no invasion.

    http://www.usembassy-mexico.gov/bbf/bftreaties.pdf

    Bilateral Treaties and Other
    Agreements
    Mexico – United States

    Include for example: "Agreement to facilitate the reciprocal transit of
    military aircraft."

    Agreement to facilitate flight notifications on
    non-scheduled, private, commercial or industrial
    flights between Mexico and the United States in
    both directions across the border.
    Exchange of notes at Washington July

    I can't find one that is quite spot on for the situation being discussed though it likely exists.

    That's why this wasn't the big deal it appears to be. And was no invasion.
    Last edited by Hopyard; September 2nd, 2010 at 11:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Why make this about tv shows and politics.
    You introduced the MSM - "national news". You also brought the State Department into this. I was simply responding to your assertion that the MSM would broadcast the news if Mexico invaded. If it does not suit the purposes of the powers that run the MSM, we would not hear it from them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Do you seriously think that between FAA, CBP, and Norad, official US govt. folks don't know what is going on.
    No. I do believe they know exactly what is going on. It appears that we agree the federal government is aware of all incursions into our territory - approved and unapproved. This is a good agreement to have. Now it appears we agree that the feds have either agreed to these incursions (some of which may be legitimate as you note) or decided to ignore Article 4 Section 4 of the US Constiution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Do you want us shooting down Mexican military assets involved in curtailing the drug gangs? That's what it sounds like.
    I really don't see how you can leap to this decision based on what I have posted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Bottom line, helicopters, private planes, military planes can easily get a few hundred yards off course and that hardly constitutes an invasion. The entry certainly doesn't even deserve thought if the entry was authorized. And of course, none of us know, one way or another that it wasn't authorized.
    I agree that navigational errors can occur. Whether these result in an invasion is not dependent of distance, but intent. I agree with you that we don't know whether these incursions were authorized. Maybe they were, maybe not. In either case, I believe we should police the territory on our side of the border. The Mexicans have proven inept at so doing on their side, why do we need them here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Just playing devils advocate here, but think about it. Do you think our CBP/FAA and NORAD officials would deny the Mexican military brief entry in furtherance of their war on the drug czars, given our interest in the Mexican government winning that war? If they did, what would the next day's headline from the right wing look like? "US government interferes in apprehension of drug lord"
    All depends on whether it was coordinated and if they Mexican authorities are working for the Federales or the cartels. Many times, they are working with the BGs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Invasion is a bit of hyperbole for this scenario.
    Where would you draw the line? San Antonio, Dallas, OK City, Helena? The borders are there for a reason. Article 4, Section 4 of the Constitution is there for a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Here's a url to a list of US Mexico binational agreements ... I can't find one that is quite spot on for the situation being discussed though it likely exists.
    I am not disputing that such agreements exist or that one did not apply to the original post. However, as you point out, we simply don't know if it did. My comment was solely based on your apparent faith that the MSM will keep us informed. I know we differ on this, but I do not believe the MSM will tell us what it does not want us to hear. Fortunately, there are other, more objective journalists, who will "print all the news that's fit to print". Sadly, the Old Grey Lady and her ilk no longer do.
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    I support shooting down the Mexican Choppers
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    Quote Originally Posted by guardmt View Post
    I support shooting down the Mexican Choppers
    Not if the choppers are shooting down the drug runners!
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    Makes you wonder why Washington hasn't issued a warning
    Actually, it doesn't make me wonder that at all. If they issued a warning, it would scream from the rooftop that we have an illegal immigration problem and Washington is doing nothing about it. They would much rather sweep the problem under the rug and out of the minds of the public.
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    sorry...just couldn't resist...

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    K: there are no secrets. If these were true unauthorized incursions the MSM you hate would pick it up and let us all know precisely because it would be sensational, would sell, and therefore generate market and advertising.

    What we have here posted by the OP is a small town paper publishing a tiny bit of a story and blissfully unaware of all the possible angles on

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    K: there are no secrets. If these were true unauthorized incursions the MSM you hate would pick it up and let us all know precisely because it would be sensational, would sell, and therefore generate market and advertising.

    What we have here posted by the OP is a small town paper publishing a tiny bit of a story and blissfully unaware of all the possible angles on
    Hop - Just curious how you get that I hate the MSM from what I have posted. While I think the MSM is, like all of us, motivated to achieve its goals and I don't think the goals of the MSM are in line with those of most Americans for America, I don't hate them. I may think they don't understand what the founding fathers did about journalism (which was why the founders gave the press freedom in the 1st amendment), I may think that the MSM would like to see the downfall of the US, I may even think the MSM is irrelevant, which its ratings increasingly prove. All that being said, I fail to see how you jump from my having a different worldview from the MSM to my necessarily having to hate them.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    Hop - Just curious how you get that I hate the MSM from what I have posted. While I think the MSM is, like all of us, motivated to achieve its goals and I don't think the goals of the MSM are in line with those of most Americans for America, I don't hate them. I may think they don't understand what the founding fathers did about journalism (which was why the founders gave the press freedom in the 1st amendment), I may think that the MSM would like to see the downfall of the US, I may even think the MSM is irrelevant, which its ratings increasingly prove. All that being said, I fail to see how you jump from my having a different worldview from the MSM to my necessarily having to hate them.
    With apology for OT drift: K, if indeed you personally think that the MSM would like to see the downfall of the US, then you'd kind of be a sorry sort if you didn't hate them. In point of fact they are businesses, and they no more want to see the downfall of the US than you or I, as that would destroy their business. So, what's the point of repeatedly making claims such as that one except to discredit legitimate new sources in favor of bloggs and propagandists?

    Now, back on topic, the story would surely have made it to the news if the US issued a formal diplomatic complaint to Mexico over this incident. I have no doubt of that. There are no secrets. Word would have gotten out, and the papers would be printing Mexico's apology or other response.

    You called the overflight (if indeed one actually occurred) an invasion. A better word might be incursion, and possibly an authorized one at that. Invasion by the Mexican military, hardly. And certainly not by the drug gang as they were being attacked by the copters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    Not if the choppers are shooting down the drug runners!
    Good point...
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    Okay the Gubment just issued an update that they have an agreement with Mexico and Canada that allows intrusion into US airspace and they reciprocate
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