Where's the line between civil liberties and safety. - Page 2

Where's the line between civil liberties and safety.

This is a discussion on Where's the line between civil liberties and safety. within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by shockwave Many provisions in the Bill of Rights have been removed already, so it's kind of important to avoid electing hardliners and ...

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Thread: Where's the line between civil liberties and safety.

  1. #16
    Member Array Deuce130's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Many provisions in the Bill of Rights have been removed already, so it's kind of important to avoid electing hardliners and zero-tolerance security freaks to high office. There's some on both sides of the aisle.
    Where's your proof of this statement? I'm certainly no fan of government intrusion or abrogation of the Constitution, but I hear this so often it's nauseating. I'd like to know what civil liberties, or provisions of the Bill of Rights, that you, Shockwave, have lost. I can't think of any that I've personally lost. And I certainly don't recall the anything from the Bill of Rights being removed. I think I would have noticed something like that.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce130 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Many provisions in the Bill of Rights have been removed already ...
    Where's your proof of this statement? I'm certainly no fan of government intrusion or abrogation of the Constitution, but I hear this so often it's nauseating.
    It is nauseating, but for a different reason: it's absolutely true.

    One issue is the 4A and the right of citizens "to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Shockwave specifically mentions it in that post, in terms of the government's wholesale vacuuming-up of all communications everywhere in the hopes of controlling the people and catching people needing to be caught. That's so obviously against the 4A that not much else needs to be said. Another example is the scary SWAT invasion and take-down of David Pyles, intruding into his life and home without warrant, because laws have been allowed to circumvent the 4A.

    Another is the 1A and the right of citizens to freely speak, write and associate. People are harassed, arrested and financially/socially ruined every day all over the country for daring to speak the wrong things, write the wrong things, associate with the wrong people or organizations. One example is whistle-blowers and how they're treated despite duty demanding just such behavior (in gov't posts) and statutes disallowing retribution for such upstanding action. Another is how reporters are jailed for withholding the names of sources. Another is the "Red Scare" affected people from the late 1940's through the late 1960's, in spite of association being legal.

    Another is the 2A. The People were armed at the start of this country and they wanted to attempt to ensure no government hacks would attempt to tyrannize and attempt to erase the citizens' right to bear arms. If the past 100 years is any guide, it's an incredible patchwork of failure to live up to the 2A that marks our recent history, what with "permission" being required in nearly every state before one is allowed by the state to dare carrying arms in defense against crime.

    While Shockwave will need to speak for himself (if he chooses), it seems to me the statement is fairly easily justified by what we've seen actually occur.

    You're right. I haven't noticed much being taken away recently, either. But that's only because most of the rights have long since ceased being something citizens really had anyway, while the soft purring of the government's message calmed us into believing everything was okay and under control, that any such restriction was temporary or exceptional and wouldn't impact things in the long run ... and yet, here we are in the long run and it's literally generations since people can recall having actually had the liberty being spoken of (4A, 1A, 2A, or whatever). What we've got are shadows of those things, and only so long as it's allowed by an angry and vengeful politician or court desirous of slapping down the offending person(s).
    Last edited by ccw9mm; October 3rd, 2010 at 02:57 PM. Reason: grammar
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Right on the money, ccw9mm. The Patriot Act was a huge rollback, and there's also been intrusion on the 5th, with the rulings that coerced testimomy is admissible. When basic civil rights are removed, it tends to be difficult to regain them.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topspeed View Post
    I have to quote Ben Franklin on that. "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety".
    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    I agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Freedom is not about being safe, it is about being free.

    ^^^^^YEP^^^^^^^^

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    The problem that keeps getting in the way is Political correctness, and the urgency to streamline the United States of America into a way of life more in line with the rest of the world.
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    Members of a flock which feels the need to supersede those in control,(the Government), will be dealt with.
    Henceforth the need for surveillance, under the guise of National Security.
    Then when all the appropriate measures are in place, those surveillance devices will be utilized for keeping the (flock) under control.JMO
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  5. #20
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    If "enhanced interrogation techniques" will provide information that makes a single American man, woman, or child even a little bit safer, I have only one thing to say: Red is positive, black is negative.
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  6. #21
    Member Array renegade01's Avatar
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    I don't want anyone on government to protect me. I am a able bodied man and can protect myself.

    This police state garbage makes my head spin.

  7. #22
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    I hate to give up any liberties, but in every civilizedsociety there are rules for the safety of all, whether we like it or not. We will never agree, as a nation, where that line falls. but what I really dislike is overused quotes that sound really good and have little application to today's world. When did Ben Franklin have to deal with the likes of al Qaeda?
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  8. #23
    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topspeed View Post
    I have to quote Ben Franklin on that. "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchace a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety".
    Perfectly expressed by a founding father.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    ... but what I really dislike is overused quotes that sound really good and have little application to today's world. When did Ben Franklin have to deal with the likes of al Qaeda?
    Intelligent people will disagree on that point.

    From investigation to erasure, no such dealings require elimination of third-party (judge's) oversight during the warrants process and wholesale sweeping of all communications in the net.

    It might be argued how many tools for enforcement are necessary, yes, but when the boundaries and oversight have essentially been removed, then I'd say we've allowed the machinations to go too far. Nobody I know has ever groused about legitimate tools and steps being useful and necessary. The only grousing I've seen comes when the justification for such tools is the dropping of the last few elements that help keep tyranny at bay. With such sidesteps now becoming normal and generally accepted, about the only remaining question is: when. That is what I have a problem with, and why. By all means, let's be creative in the tools we create and provide, but by God let's not hand the "house keys" to those rooting around in the dark, as it's only going to provide an irresistible temptation when push comes to shove.

    Quite obviously the warning bell inherent in the zippy little quote from Franklin was about just this sort of devil's bargain ... which IMO is about as applicable as it gets.
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  10. #25
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loboleather View Post
    If "enhanced interrogation techniques" will provide information that makes a single American man, woman, or child even a little bit safer, I have only one thing to say: Red is positive, black is negative.
    Sorry, can't agree there, what happens when the person they are interrogating is an American and they turn out to be innocent or have no information? Some people in Gitmo did turn out to be innocent after all.

    I have a feeling you will support your position till someone gets bad intel and you end up wired to something
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Intelligent people will disagree on that point.
    Intelligent people will always disagree, even with each other. But it is easy to use quotes over and over, many of which were never stated by the quoter. I only wish we call be "free" to do whatever each of us likes, but that would be unrealistic as someone's likes will always be someone else's dislikes. It is truely a double-edged sword.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Another example is the scary SWAT invasion and take-down of David Pyles, intruding into his life and home without warrant, because laws have been allowed to circumvent the 4A.
    Just the mere mention of all that equine excrement that went down in Medford gets my blood boiling...

  13. #28
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    Ben Franklin did not have to deal with the likes of Al Queda, but did deal with the agents and soldiers of one of the superpowers of his time. I'm sure he would not have approved of the fledgling USA opening every letter and having government agents eavesdropping on every conversation to deal with murdering scum from a foreign country.

  14. #29
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    "I have to quote Ben Franklin on that. "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchace a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety". "
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Freedom is not about being safe, it is about being free. "


    ^^^ What they said!
    Let us all look out for our own safety and that of our community and family. If safety was everyone's responsibility, the gov. would not need to do it as much.
    Walk softly ...

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    "I prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery" - Thomas Jefferson

    That is all I have to say

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