TSA Absurdness

This is a discussion on TSA Absurdness within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by EB31 That's if you make the assumption that terrorism is limited to middle easterners. I don't make that mistake, I feel it's ...

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Thread: TSA Absurdness

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EB31 View Post
    That's if you make the assumption that terrorism is limited to middle easterners. I don't make that mistake, I feel it's ignorant and small minded. Terrorism comes is all sizes, races, nationalities and religions.

    Metal detectors for everyone. Wand for everyone. Pat down for those that "fit the bill"...ie nervous, jittery, over dressed in the wrong type of weather or a million other indicators OTHER than the color of their skin.

    Again, harassing little kids and elderly women is not preventing terrorist attacks. Ransacking somone's travel snacks and arresting them is not preventing terrorism. It's retarded, plain and simple.

    The lack of common sense the TSA demonstrates is astonishing. The lack of common sense demonstrated in some of these threads in regards to the TSA, the government and terrorism is even more astonishing.
    I agree with you. As the old saying goes... "If only everyone could think like me and thee." (and sometimes I wonder about thee)

    I believe, since I have always been treated with respect from the TSA, the cases of assumed harassment seem to be very isolated cases. The lack of common sense will always remain, no matter what organization it is.

    The comments I read here make it appear that this type of treatment is normal for the TSA and it's not at all true.There are bad apples in every organization and the TSA is no exception.
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  3. #32
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    There's no defending the bad TSA employees, and the less than brilliant ones that have caused some of these problems should be fired from employment, but the process itself is not something I'm comfortable with eliminating. Even if I don't fly, it may be someone I know, that gets on the one plane that goes down because of a missed device.

    I also firmly believe that for every person that the media has put on the evening news that complains about the process, you and I could find eight or nine others that are okay with it and that have not had any bad experiences.

    Personally, when it comes to my life and the lives of my loved ones, if I have to get on an airplane I'll put up with a lot to ensure a safe airplane ride. Yeah, that's just me, but how many of you get into a car, fail to buckle up, then proceed to drive outside the limits of the car you're driving, the roads on you're on, the traffic conditions, and any other thing you do to make sure you're safe in your car? It's not a fair analogy, but it does illustrate one thing: we all do more than we're always aware of, either when our situational awareness perks up or we're just driving down the road, to keep ourselves safe.
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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig35seven View Post
    #1

    I'll say it again...I fly a fair amount and have NEVER been treated in an abusive manor nor have I been molested by the TSA. I have always been treated with the utmost respect. I also found the whole process a VERY minor inconvenience. The media is taking isolated cases and blowing them way out of proportion.

    BTW... flying is still the safest mode of transportation.
    I don't disagree that flying isn't safe with regards to accidents and such. I was more referring to what I would consider a lack of careful screening at my last security line. I'm using the word 'safe' in the context that when (not if) a suicidal terrorist gets something past security everyone on the plane will be the captive audience that's just along for the ride...

    I don't allow terror to stop our activities, but I do choose to drive as often as realistically possible because I am able to retain a more significant amount of personal defensive options that way.

  5. #34
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    If it was so "easy" to get explosives on a plane prior to the body scanners and groping, why didn't we see more of it -- a LOT more of it?

    Because it's a steaming pile of colon cabbage, that's why. These new procedures are a reaction to one anomaly and are not any more safer.
    Enjoy having nude pictures taken of your kid and trusting they won't "get out."
    Enjoy explaining to your child how getting groped by a stranger is "necessary."

    Are the TSA the "bad guys"? I don't know, what do you call people who are doing wrong and claiming they're just following orders?

    Seriously, why not go all the way and require people to change into a Flight Passenger Unitard for travel after a strip search? After all, "What would you all prefer? Nothing?"

    Or maybe, just maybe, there are more options than "Grope vs. Nothing."
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  6. #35
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jumpwing View Post
    If it was so "easy" to get explosives on a plane prior to the body scanners and groping, why didn't we see more of it -- a LOT more of it?

    Because it's a steaming pile of colon cabbage, that's why. These new procedures are a reaction to one anomaly and are not any more safer.
    Enjoy having nude pictures taken of your kid and trusting they won't "get out."
    Enjoy explaining to your child how getting groped by a stranger is "necessary."

    Are the TSA the "bad guys"? I don't know, what do you call people who are doing wrong and claiming they're just following orders?

    Seriously, why not go all the way and require people to change into a Flight Passenger Unitard for travel after a strip search? After all, "What would you all prefer? Nothing?"

    Or maybe, just maybe, there are more options than "Grope vs. Nothing."
    Great. What are the options? Please enlighten us.
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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmacque View Post
    Great. What are the options? Please enlighten us.
    Easy, we just go back to the old security measures since we know terrorist's ideas and methodology can't evolve past razor blades.

  8. #37
    Distinguished Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Easy, we just go back to the old security measures since we know terrorist's ideas and methodology can't evolve past razor blades.
    That's my thinking. The standard pre-9/11 security procedures were fine for catching guns and knives. Dogs can get the rest. The shoe bomber and underwear bomber didn't do anything - they didn't have "devices," they only had the approximate suggestion of what could be weapons, which don't yet exist.

    Instead, we really ought to be profiling. You don't waste resources by trying to screen everyone - you focus on the most-likely threats.
    The suggestion of profiling is really racial profiling.
    No, "profiling" here means "terrorist profiling." But sure, young middle eastern male, point. Inappropriate clothing, point. Sweating and nervous, point. Chanting or repetitive praying, point. Weird bulges in clothing, point. Aversion to eye-contact, point. Hands constantly patting down body, point. One-way ticket, point. Ticket paid for in cash, point. Traveling from known terrorist point of origin, point. Name on watch list, point. Etc.

    As the points rack up, the need for more careful screening increases. One or two points doesn't necessarily trip the flag. But what we're doing is creating a massive snarling mess that irritates the traveling public, reduces efficiency, and creates a static web of known defenses that can be probed and eventually beaten.

    Don't take my word for it - read the many articles online by security experts who are laughing at us, almost crying tears at how pathetic and stupid our so-called "safety measures" are. We're taking nude pictures of children and giving grandma the panty-frisk for no decent reason.

    The authoritarians among us are upset and angry that mere citizens exhibit the temerity of questioning law enforcement directives. Well, sorry guys, but that's what being an American citizen is all about: when your rights are being trampled upon, you defend them. When the administration is out of line, you push back. That's how we govern ourselves.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    The authoritarians among us are upset and angry that mere citizens exhibit the temerity of questioning law enforcement directives. Well, sorry guys, but that's what being an American citizen is all about: when your rights are being trampled upon, you defend them. When the administration is out of line, you push back. That's how we govern ourselves.
    ^ Yes! This!

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    Hilarious!!!! yet...sadly very possible. The terrorist are winning...America is changing
    A couple decades ago and more, major changes were occurring in thinking and how people acted toward one another, toward liberties, toward expressions of power and control over others. The apathetic wilting of the will hasn't occurred due to terrorism; at worst, in the long run that'll only forge people into a stronger unit and weapon against terrorism (witnessing what occurred on the ground on 9/11, similar to the result of the bombings of London in the early 1940's).

    That being said, I don't think any of us like the direction things are going. The idea of body cavity searches of children only cements the idea of how far some of these "precautions" go.

    I've always enjoyed the countryside and have never minded taking the scenic route. A holdover from my cycling and motorcycling days. Give me a wheeled vehicle and no crowds any day, even at the expense of a few extra days' "wasted" time. There's nothing like wrapping a few vacation days around a business trip, for improving the outlook and charging the batteries. That was true long before Bin Laden became a household term, and it'll remain true long after.
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  11. #40
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    Today, I was "randomly" selected to go through the machine. I did the "Opt out" and endured the pat down.
    Now, here's what I noticed. The woman in front of me "randomly" selected was a Caucasian 70 yr. old.
    The man after me "randomly" selected was a blind man who had to be led to the pat down.
    NONE of us fit the profile. I decided I could stand there all day and never see a muslim "randomly" selected.

    Wake up, people!!!

    I took the opportunity of the time I had while being groped to remind the TSA guy that I had never been to Yemen, and had 2 million frequent flier miles, and perhaps if I were to do anything, I would have done it long ago.

    I also reminded him that Michael Chertoff (former DHS head) now sells Rapid-Scan machines, and the CEO of Rapid-Scan (Depac Chupra) was a Obama contributor, and accompanied Obama on his trip to India that I paid for.
    He didn't seem interested.

  12. #41
    Senior Member Array tbrenke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    TSA is not the bad guys indeed, but they are the inept guys. Wrong is wrong.

    They chose the wrong equipment for the job by ignoring radiation issues. They chose the wrong equipment for the job by
    using software which shows too much. They have completely failed to convince that pics can't be taken.

    But radiation aside, they have simply over-reached.

    As for the pat -downs, they have turned themselves into the bad guys by showing a total disrespect for people, for us.
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    Hopyard,
    Rarly do i agree with you when you start stating your opinions, but I have to say that you are spot on with this one. Our government has overreached again and are getting a second blowback. The first was on Nov 2nd. I do not know how far this one will go but I do hope that it is peaceful when it does come to a head.
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  13. #42
    Senior Member Array tbrenke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post

    No, "profiling" here means "terrorist profiling." But sure, young middle eastern male, point. Inappropriate clothing, point. Sweating and nervous, point. Chanting or repetitive praying, point. Weird bulges in clothing, point. Aversion to eye-contact, point. Hands constantly patting down body, point. One-way ticket, point. Ticket paid for in cash, point. Traveling from known terrorist point of origin, point. Name on watch list, point. Etc.

    As the points rack up, the need for more careful screening increases. One or two points doesn't necessarily trip the flag. But what we're doing is creating a massive snarling mess that irritates the traveling public, reduces efficiency, and creates a static web of known defenses that can be probed and eventually beaten.

    Don't take my word for it - read the many articles online by security experts who are laughing at us, almost crying tears at how pathetic and stupid our so-called "safety measures" are. We're taking nude pictures of children and giving grandma the panty-frisk for no decent reason.

    The authoritarians among us are upset and angry that mere citizens exhibit the temerity of questioning law enforcement directives. Well, sorry guys, but that's what being an American citizen is all about: when your rights are being trampled upon, you defend them. When the administration is out of line, you push back. That's how we govern ourselves.
    I can agree with this.
    a reasonable and thought full approach. I do not think that there is a single person on a plane after 9/11 that is going to allow a couple of people with box cutters to do much of anything but bleed and get beaten to death. it is only bombs that will need to be looked for.

    I drive. that way I can protect my self and my family.
    I am not allowed to do that on a plane.
    "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -1792, James Madison
    There are always too many Democratic, Republican and never enough U.S. congressmen.

  14. #43
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    The current uproar about the TSA's latest efforts reminds me of a time right after 9/11. I was flying from Seattle to San Antonio for business. As many may recall, the security lines were horrendous..... I had the good fortune to be behind a (now retired) US Senator waiting for the security screening. We had some time to chat... since the lines were LONG..... He made a statement that has stuck with me for almost 10 years now. He said, that it was amazing how 9 people had changed our country..... Another bit of irony... when he got to the security screening, he was frisked and wanded. I thought to myself.... darn... there are only 100 US Senators in our great country.... and I don't think that he meets the profile of a terrorist!

    We live in interesting times.

  15. #44
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    The TSA may in fact be violating the "Border Search Exception" of the 4th Amendment.

    "Searches conducted at the United States border or the equivalent of the border (such as an international airport) may be conducted without a warrant or probable cause subject to the "border-search" exception.[67] Most border searches may be conducted entirely at random, without any level of suspicion, pursuant to U.S. Customs and Border Protection plenary search authority. However, searches that intrude upon a traveler's personal dignity and privacy interests, such as strip and body cavity searches, must be supported by "reasonable suspicion."

    It was just reported on the news that a lawsuit has been filed against the TSA for this violation.
    Unless the TSA can articulate that every single passenger is suspicious, it would appear that they are in the wrong here.

    If you dont know your rights, you might as well not have any.
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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    The TSA may in fact be violating the "Border Search Exception" of the 4th Amendment.

    "Searches conducted at the United States border or the equivalent of the border (such as an international airport) may be conducted without a warrant or probable cause subject to the "border-search" exception.[67] Most border searches may be conducted entirely at random, without any level of suspicion, pursuant to U.S. Customs and Border Protection plenary search authority. However, searches that intrude upon a traveler's personal dignity and privacy interests, such as strip and body cavity searches, must be supported by "reasonable suspicion."

    It was just reported on the news that a lawsuit has been filed against the TSA for this violation.
    Unless the TSA can articulate that every single passenger is suspicious, it would appear that they are in the wrong here.

    If you dont know your rights, you might as well not have any.
    That'll be interesting to see play out. I doubt anything will come of it though since you don't have a Constitutional right to fly on an airplane and you can easily avoid being "searched" by not flying. The general public's Constitutional rights gets "suspended" on private property in favor of the property owner's rights and airplanes and terminals leased to public or private corporations are considered private property.

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