A Significant Danger

This is a discussion on A Significant Danger within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; The Immense Danger of Hidden Hands on a Prone Suspect. A recent Force Science study on the danger of hidden hands on a prone suspect ...

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Thread: A Significant Danger

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    A Significant Danger

    The Immense Danger of Hidden Hands on a Prone Suspect.

    A recent Force Science study on the danger of hidden hands on a prone suspect illustrates the immense danger and tremendous advantage that must be overcome, by officers.

    http://watch.discoverychannel.ca/dai...10/#clip275641

    Further info in Force Science Transmission #164
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Can't see the link, due to using iPhone with no flashplayer, but it is always a concern when we prone someone out for cuffing. Our technique is to have them place palms up, and turn head away from us. Is this what you are refferring to?

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    They did an experiment with a number of volunteer subjects. They determined that on a prone susp with their hands hidden under them, if they have a weapon, depending on the direction of approach of the officer, the susp can produce a weapon and fire in a time frame that is impossible to respond to. Using high speed cameras, if the officer is approaching from the head of the susp, the weapon of the susp becomes visible 0.0 sec befor firing by the susp.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    And I wish I had a copy of this for my personal protection in the home class so when student want to know why NOT to go hands on with a bad guy you are holding at gun point.

    Thanks Guantes

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    Member Array chivvalry's Avatar
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    I saw that experiment, or one very similar on TV, once. It was VERY illuminating. Frankly, due to seeing that anytime I have been stopped by a LEO I always do my very best to keep my hands in clear sight and make no fast moves. I attempt to put myself in the officer's shoes and I've long ago determined I would make a terrible cop. I would be one of "those cops" that overreact and prone people out with my gun drawn just because they scared me by reaching for their wallet too fast. This is probably from an over-exposure to grainy dash cam videos of LEOs getting shot and/or attacked and beaten.
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
    You are not paranoid if They are actually out to get you, however, They probably are not and you probably are.

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    Very sobering study. I subscribe to Force Science Newsletter but don't get a chance to read through all of them. I'll have to go back and see if I still have #164.

    I forwarded this to several of my LE trainer buddies. Thanks for posting this Guantes!
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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    Quote Originally Posted by NC Bullseye View Post
    And I wish I had a copy of this for my personal protection in the home class so when student want to know why NOT to go hands on with a bad guy you are holding at gun point.

    Thanks Guantes
    If you are a LEO or affiliated with an agency you can sign up and subscribe to the newsletter which comes via email. Force Science Institute

    They also have their back issues archived, however, this issue #164 is new and not in the archives yet. (They require you list your department name and address when signing up to receive the email newsletter, but not to read the archived ones posted on the website.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    If you are a LEO or affiliated with an agency you can sign up and subscribe to the newsletter which comes via email. Force Science Institute

    They also have their back issues archived, however, this issue #164 is new and not in the archives yet. (They require you list your department name and address when signing up to receive the email newsletter, but not to read the archived ones posted on the website.

    Thanks for the info, but I'm just a lowly NRA instructor and state CHP instructor. The old cowboy movies where they hogtie the bad guys has really made it a challenge to get students to realize that you don't go hands on. Period. This is a good straight forward explanation of why that may end up being the last bad idea they have.

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Guantes, thanks for the info. We never know enough, or can be too complacent.

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    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    great research...interesting how fast the presentation is and the body language to look for....

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Back in the mid 70's In the USAF Security Police we were trained to prone out a suspect face down arms out to sides with palms up and legs lifted and crossed at ankles,It would require several things to happen if subject tried to deploy a weapon or roll over giving the Police Officer time to react
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    Member Array chivvalry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    Back in the mid 70's In the USAF Security Police we were trained to prone out a suspect face down arms out to sides with palms up and legs lifted and crossed at ankles,It would require several things to happen if subject tried to deploy a weapon or roll over giving the Police Officer time to react
    Well, as of the late 80s, when I was put in that exact position by an ART as a result of BOTH our on-site guards taking a nap and missing several check-ins, they were still teaching that. I was less than pleased to be face down in the gravel... thankfully it wasn't snowing or raining.
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
    You are not paranoid if They are actually out to get you, however, They probably are not and you probably are.

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    Interesting vid.
    Not being in law enforcement, it's probably not something in my future, but is does point out that danger can lurk at any moment...when you least expect it.
    Stay armed...stay very alert...stay safe!
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    I'm not a police officer, but I have training and experience dealing with detainees, and handling and restraining them. It is one of the most dangerous things you can do. But I would not, and still will not approach someone we have proned out if I can not clearly see their hands. It is too easy to push a little putton, or pull a grenade pin, and then everyone close by turns into a mist. just something else to consider, but thankfully most criminals aren't fanatics like that.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

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    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeyeLCPL View Post
    but thankfully most criminals aren't fanatics like that.
    It only takes one!
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

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