Women in combat

This is a discussion on Women in combat within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by rstickle Having spent 20+ years in the Army I can honestly say in most cases the women are much like the men, ...

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Thread: Women in combat

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstickle View Post
    Having spent 20+ years in the Army I can honestly say in most cases the women are much like the men, both in CONUS and OCONUS, you have good and bad in both sexes.



    The problem is in todays war(s) the front line is very ill defined. I think women should be able to serve in just about any job. I think the best thing would be just a few "keep out" MOS groups like 11 and 18 series might be a better way to prohibit, rather than saying "combat" since it seems like that door has already been opened...... Unless you are not going to deploy females out of the US.
    I can only speak to the problems I observed while serving in the Navy. I'm sure that the Army has it's own set of problems.

    During my 5 years in the Navy I spent half on a ship and half on shore. The problems with mixing the sexes was magnified 100 times over while on the ship. There's just too many places to sneak off to. I'm sure that living in a tent city doesn't afford the opportunity that a ship at sea does.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbrenke View Post
    I can go along with this. but the standard needs to change also. everyone passes the same tests for entry and advancement.
    equal should really mean equal and not superficial equal at best.
    But even if all things are equal you can't escape the psychological makeup that differentiates men and women. An article by John Luddy in July 27, 1994, for the Heritage Foundation backgrounder shows that having women if combat reduces the safety and effectiveness of the unit. Luddy writes about a study of Israeli women in combat units:

    "For example, it is a common misperception that Israel allows women in combat units. In fact, women have been barred from combat in Israel since 1950, when a review of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War showed how harmful their presence could be. The study revealed that men tried to protect and assist women rather than continue their attack. As a result, they not only put their own lives in greater danger, but also jeopardized the survival of the entire unit. The study further revealed that unit morale was damaged when men saw women killed and maimed on the battlefield," Luddy said.

    The Israelis concluded that allowing women in combat cost lives. And women who are captured, like Jessica Lynch, may face the added horror of sexual abuse.

  4. #33
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    I've flown with female aircrew for 15 years, my wife included. Women make good aviators, for the most part. My twin brother has flown with female fighter pilots for 15 years. They do ok there also. The facts are, however, they don't have the physical traits needed for ground combat. My career in the military leads me to believe there will not be one standard for combat troops. There will be a male standard and a female standard. The military will be forced to have a certain percentage of units female, regardless of whether or not standards are met. I say keep the system as it is. It's bad enough already that America sends it's mothers and daughters to fight its wars, we don't need to make it worse.

  5. #34
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    Let me start by saying I am not a vet of combat, so all of this is opinion I gathered from listening to those I have listened to who have been there.

    I am torn on this one. I want them to serve the country they love but combat but as many have stated picking up a male Soldier's body parts is different than the thought of picking up a female's.

    Most women wouldn't be able to drag a body, either on the ground or in the case of an Air Force ground crew, out of a cockpit. Then again, I know some guys who can't do this either.
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

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  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    I guess I'm a bit too old school to buy this. Physical limitations, and issues of unit cohesion are argueable reasons but basically I just don't want to turn on the TV news and see or hear about young girls being killed or maimed and coming home in body bags. I just don't. Military service for women is fine but not front line combat. My opinion.
    To my way of thinking you are absolutely correct sir.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

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  7. #36
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    Awhile back I was looking to join the Marines. I had been to the recruiting office numerous times but I thought I would go talk to one of my dads friends who was a former Army Ranger. (Before I go on I want to state that I have the utmost respect for women and in no way think less of them. God knows I just saw my wife give birth 4 days ago and I don't think I could do that in a million years. I just know that we were created differently.) One point that he brought up was the physical difference in the male and female bodies. They literally had to do completely different training. The example he gave was swamp training. They would dump these men out in water and muck up to their waists and make them walk though it for days on end. Women can't have the lower half of their bodies under water/muck that long because they are made different. (not better or worse, just different) I think usmc is pretty much right on here.

    I am all for equal opportunities. But there are very real biological and physical differences in men and women that have to be considered when talking about young peoples lives.(Again, not better or worse just different.)

  8. #37
    Member Array tkirk's Avatar
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    The right to die for the same pay & grade....how noble our Congressional Leadership has become! Western Civilization separates itself from all others in the way they treat their women. 3/4 of the current world's population routinely abuse & beat their women....that is not tolerated here....yet!
    Ask yourself one simple question: What type of an individual or culture would not only condone, but advocate violence against women by placing them in harm's way? Are we about to join that global majority?

  9. #38
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    I witnessed a similiar transition about three decades ago when the Air Force was first opening the Security side of Security Police to females. While the physical limitations were an issue (the ability to carry/deploy the M-60 and ammo while in full gear etc...) the biggest problem was the males. Those few females who wanted to play the "help me, I'm a little girl" routine had no problem finding guys who would help them carry their load. Some supervisors gave preferential treatment to select women.

    I'm all about equality. But make it full equality. If they powers that be want women to be considered equal then don't half-step. Require women to register for the draft just like the men and be subject to assignment to combat units without choice, just like the men.

  10. #39
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    "For example, it is a common misperception that Israel allows women in combat units. In fact, women have been barred from combat in Israel since 1950, when a review of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War showed how harmful their presence could be. The study revealed that men tried to protect and assist women rather than continue their attack. As a result, they not only put their own lives in greater danger, but also jeopardized the survival of the entire unit. The study further revealed that unit morale was damaged when men saw women killed and maimed on the battlefield," Luddy said.
    Bingo! This is what I was trying to convey.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  11. #40
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    Absolutely not.
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  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.stuart View Post
    Yes! I often mention this to my wife.Why send young people that have a possible future?We have prisons full of real killers,no training needed.Make a deal with them.Who knows,it might benefit everyone involved.
    Right... Give a bunch of criminals guns and expect them to go off to a foreign land and fight for you. Do you think there might be some dicipline problems?
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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  13. #42
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    I think this young lady makes some valid points.

    http://www.pbs.org/pov/regardingwar/...moot-point.php
    Luis

    "Everybody's got a plan, 'til they get hit".

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  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Right... Give a bunch of criminals guns and expect them to go off to a foreign land and fight for you. Do you think there might be some dicipline problems?
    The point I was trying to make with that is put them on the front lines or drop them in a hot zone. Who cares if they take orders? Use them as a diversion and let them be bullet catchers. Use up the enemies ammo supply, whatever.

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by co9mil View Post
    But even if all things are equal you can't escape the psychological makeup that differentiates men and women. An article by John Luddy in July 27, 1994, for the Heritage Foundation backgrounder shows that having women if combat reduces the safety and effectiveness of the unit. Luddy writes about a study of Israeli women in combat units:

    "For example, it is a common misperception that Israel allows women in combat units. In fact, women have been barred from combat in Israel since 1950, when a review of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War showed how harmful their presence could be. The study revealed that men tried to protect and assist women rather than continue their attack. As a result, they not only put their own lives in greater danger, but also jeopardized the survival of the entire unit. The study further revealed that unit morale was damaged when men saw women killed and maimed on the battlefield," Luddy said.

    The Israelis concluded that allowing women in combat cost lives. And women who are captured, like Jessica Lynch, may face the added horror of sexual abuse.
    He said everything that was on my mind. +1

  16. #45
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    I think that those best suited for the job should do it. At the same time, unit cohesion and combat effectiveness should not be compromised. There are a lot of men who can't do my job, and if they make it to the fleet as infantrymen, they soon get moved to a support position. Not saying I am Rambo, but I am a Marine infantryman, which is a focal point of the debate.

    That is really all I am willing to say about that topic online. But I think some very valid points have been made.
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