ATF scandal

This is a discussion on ATF scandal within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Gunrunning scandal uncovered at the ATF - CBS Evening News - CBS News ATF purposely allows weapons to cross the border, perhaps as many as ...

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    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    ATF scandal

    Gunrunning scandal uncovered at the ATF - CBS Evening News - CBS News

    ATF purposely allows weapons to cross the border, perhaps as many as 2500.
    Last edited by miklcolt45; February 24th, 2011 at 07:28 PM. Reason: Incorrect assumptions
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    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    They will cough up a few goats to take one for the team, straighten their ties, and go on with business like it never happened. In a few months, they will publish another report about how much of an increase of guns crossing the border there has been over the last year and push for more legislation and restrictions.

    They will take the methods used by the church and play the "shell" game with department heads involved, transfer or promote to other divisions to hide them for a while.
    Sticks

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    ATF purposely allows weapons to cross the border to inflate their numbers, get a larger budget, and unilateral powers.
    Please show where in that article ANY of these reasons were mentioned?

    Letting contraband "walk" for the purposes of determining where it is going is an extremely common LE tactic. I personally think that this was a remarkably risky operation (as, apparently, so did a number of people involved), but it certainly isn't unique to the ATF, and there is absolutely NO evidence that it was done for any reason other than to "follow the guns" and see who was buying them, who was transporting them, and where they ended up.

    Furthermore, your thread title is misleading - no one in the ATF has been indicted in any way, shape or form. A large number of GUN SMUGGLERS have been indicted BY the ATF. And we blame the "main stream media" for this sort of skewed, slanted, and biased reporting every day, right?

    Absolutely baseless rhetoric is counterproductive to whatever cause it is you're trying to promote.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Please show where in that article ANY of these reasons were mentioned?

    Letting contraband "walk" for the purposes of determining where it is going is an extremely common LE tactic. I personally think that this was a remarkably risky operation (as, apparently, so did a number of people involved), but it certainly isn't unique to the ATF, and there is absolutely NO evidence that it was done for any reason other than to "follow the guns" and see who was buying them, who was transporting them, and where they ended up.
    A fair point indeed. However, one of the guns ended up being used to murder a BP agent. There should be some accountability within the ATF for the decisions that allowed that to happen.

    It's not like this guy bought 4 rifles and one happened to be used to kill a federal officer. This one smuggler bought 575 AK-47 pattern rifles, and was allowed to transport them to Mexico while the field agents begged their chain of command to let them stop the shipments. The involved dealers wanted to stop the sales and were "encouraged" by the ATF to continue them. When does a valid, if risky, investigative procedure become negligence? I'd submit it did in this case.

    Matt
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    I’m with Matt on this one; they had enough evidence with the 4473s why not intercept the weapons before they got into the hands of criminals.
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    "[When does a valid, if risky, investigative procedure become negligence? I'd submit it did in this case.]"

    ^^^^^^TRUE^^^VERY TRUE^^^^
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    I agree that this was a risky operation - they (ATF) decided it was worth the risk to try for the "big fish" in the chain rather than bust the bottom-level guys that were buying the guns. The risk, in this case, had tragic results. In hindsight, it wasn't worth it.

    That said, it is a big stretch to say that BP Agent Terry wouldn't have been killed had these particular guns been intercepted; all we know for sure is that two of these guns were found at the scene.

    Everyone involved in the "border war" is facing a very dangerous situation, and calculated risks will always be a part of the equation. I am very sorry for Agent Terry and his family, and believe that there MAY have been a better way to go about catching the "big fish," but I am safe to say that from the comfort of my chair, many miles away...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Allowing 575 AK-47 pattern rifles to be transported illegally into Mexico so that they could track them to their final destination and in doing so allow them to be distributed to local drug gangs is poor decision making on the part of the BATF. My $.02.
    Last edited by Old School; February 24th, 2011 at 01:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Please show where in that article ANY of these reasons were mentioned?
    Whether or not the original intent of the BATFE brass was to inflate numbers of guns going across the border for reporting purposes, they will end up in the reports. Whether the intent was to provide ammo to the antis to crack down on gun shops in border states or more broadly - who knows, but that may be an end result.

    I get the possibly legitimate intent in creating an investigative trail by letting a few guns go across the border, but the volume of guns going into this program is unjustifiable IMHO. Further, there were more than a few BATFE agents/personnel and gun stores that were wanting to see these transactions stopped. There should probably be indictments of certain government personnel, but they will proffer flunkies to take the fall. This will not get to the root of the problem. I will stop now as any further statements I make would be political in nature and outside the scope of the discussion on this board. Suffice it to say, however, I think the government, BATFE in particular screwed up royally on this one.
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    OPFOR is absolutely correct, walking contraband is just a tool in the business. Granted, this one had a bad outcome. Its nothing more than a 'lost battle' among a much larger scale war.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    If they would just actually close both borders north and south then maybe something would get done, but the "open border" is a cash cow for many people and agencies in the form of cheap labor for corporations, funding for the "war on drugs" for agencies, justification of hiring more bodies and big budgets, etc. If history has shown us anything, it is that greed and power trumps responsibility and safety.

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    I for one WOULD like to see a list of the "walked" weapon's serial numbers compared to the serial numbers of weapons seized by the Mexicans and traced by the ATF and used to scream about the volume of US guns going to the Mexican cartels. It would be VERY interesting if there were even a single match and I for one would be as surprised as Captain Renault finding gambling in the back room at Rick's Cafe if it happened.

    I worked with the FBI on a communications fraud case (putting a former employer who screwed me over in prison) in the 80s, at the time a proposal was floating around DC about shutting down the ATF and rolling it into the FBI. The FBI agents I had regular contact had and even lower opinion of the ATF than I did and wanted nothing to do with any ATF personnel.

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    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Please show where in that article ANY of these reasons were mentioned?

    Letting contraband "walk" for the purposes of determining where it is going is an extremely common LE tactic. I personally think that this was a remarkably risky operation (as, apparently, so did a number of people involved), but it certainly isn't unique to the ATF, and there is absolutely NO evidence that it was done for any reason other than to "follow the guns" and see who was buying them, who was transporting them, and where they ended up.

    Furthermore, your thread title is misleading - no one in the ATF has been indicted in any way, shape or form. A large number of GUN SMUGGLERS have been indicted BY the ATF. And we blame the "main stream media" for this sort of skewed, slanted, and biased reporting every day, right?

    Absolutely baseless rhetoric is counterproductive to whatever cause it is you're trying to promote.
    I apologize for quoting from another poster on another forum where I first found this. I had not read the full article at that time.
    Last edited by miklcolt45; February 24th, 2011 at 07:26 PM. Reason: Spelling corrections
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    Thanks, miklcolt45, that was a stand up thing to do.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    If a Navy captain can be canned for a video, I think the head of the ATF should be canned for this.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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