People not trusting cops

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Originally Posted by SIXTO

Yeah, I know. But who's fault is that? The police? The applicant? The potential employer?

Most of the time applicants are bounced from employment process for not being honest about arrests. Employers should be looking at big pictures, and use the arrest record for what they are worth. For example, lets say a applicant comes in for a truck driving job today. He has an arrest (no conviction) for marijuana possession in 1991. Thats it. He is honest about it. Now lets say another guy comes in. He has no convictions but arrests for the same in 1993, 2001 and 2010. See the value there? I'd say there is something up with guy #2, and no hire. I'd be willing to give guy one a shot.

OK, now lets say guy number one has the same record, but lies about it. Do I hire him? Nope. I can't trust him.

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I get what you are saying about trust, but at the same time if a person even has to mention an arrest for which they were not convicted then our system has failed. That whole due process/trial thing is kind of out the window. The trucker may not have gone to jail for simply being accused of smoking dope but now he didn't get a job for something that he was accused of and didn't even do (I'm assuming because he wasn't convicted he didn't do it...).

I've never applied for a government job, but the civilian jobs I've applied for only asked if I'd been convicted of a felony/misdemeanor. None asked if I'd been arrested. Of course I've had the same job for 12 years now so it has been a little while.

Also, isn't getting pulled over for a traffic violation technically being arrested? I got a speeding ticket when I was 17 and I could swear I remember things like "date of arrest" on the form...

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Originally Posted by SIXTO

Yeah, I know. But who's fault is that? The police? The applicant? The potential employer?

Most of the time applicants are bounced from employment process for not being honest about arrests. Employers should be looking at big pictures, and use the arrest record for what they are worth. For example, lets say a applicant comes in for a truck driving job today. He has an arrest (no conviction) for marijuana possession in 1991. Thats it. He is honest about it. Now lets say another guy comes in. He has no convictions but arrests for the same in 1993, 2001 and 2010. See the value there? I'd say there is something up with guy #2, and no hire. I'd be willing to give guy one a shot.

OK, now lets say guy number one has the same record, but lies about it. Do I hire him? Nope. I can't trust him.

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I agree on whose fault it is, but my point was that you stated arrests don't follow you when in fact they can. As much as we can make the analogy of guy #1 & guy #2, if you have an arrest that you did not deserve, you may be excluded just for having gotten the short end of the stick or being in the wrong place at the wrong time at one point. It sucks, but some folks do judge a book by its cover.

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Originally Posted by mcp1810

Like the guy at my credit union that misplaced a decimal point while I was on vacation. Nothing like being a thousand miles from home and only having one tenth of your pay check credited to your account. So I guess I am supposed to not trust anyone that works in the financial field. They are all either incompetent or crooks just like Bernie Madoff and Allen Stanford.

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My point was not to distrust all bankers just to point out how FUBAR they can make things in respons to someone who said Bankers, carpenters & preachers can't have the same impact as police.

I would say there is a similar percentage of corrupt bankers as there are corrupt police officers, preachers, carpenters, fry cooks, janitors, porn stars, bakers, butchers, candlestick makers...
Only morticians are ALL scumbags... :danceban:

(Yes that was for your benefit DG... )

I do not think it is not trusting "cops" I think it is not trusting the morals of humans in this day an age. There is rampant corruption at all levels of government and corporations. Even the people you least expect to be immoral are getting caught doing things they should not be doing. I have always said that being in LE requires you to live at a higher moral standard than you may normally live at as a civilian and if you cannot mentally and emotionally accept that then you should not enter into that career field. The problem is that the job requires a lot of nothing with rapidly developing spikes of high adrenaline and stress coupled with endangering your life and then a crash back to nothing then a whole lot of tedious nitpicking paperwork and the job just doesn't pay well enough to be in high demand to people willing to accept these spikes of stress and crashes back to normalcy. It takes a toll on the person to include both mental and physical fatigue. Seeing as it is not in a higher pay echelon, in some cities and high crime areas, the demand outweighs the supply and they are forced to select below par applicants to fill positions. They really try to weed out the tackleberries and the mentally and physically unfit, as well as the ones with questionable morals... but it is almost impossible to predict someones intentions and morals if they do a good job of hiding it. Then there is the political policies and procedures pumped into the young impressionable minds of officers new on the job who mold themselves into a tight knit group that develops an us vs. them mentality with a huge lack of compassion for anyone not wearing the badge. This comes from the top. How do we fix this? That is a very hard question to answer, but it does need to start at the top with quick identification of problem children and either termination or rehabilitation chances, the directive of compassion and assistance to their fellow man above and beyond what current sensitivity training is offered as well as compassion for the officers that work for them so that the attitude is not do as I say not as I do. In this world of growing population and different types of crime, it is a hard balance to achieve. However I do feel the entire LE community as a whole needs a makeover, and needs to go back to community policing instead of community "control"

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Originally Posted by 357and40

I agree on whose fault it is, but my point was that you stated arrests don't follow you when in fact they can. As much as we can make the analogy of guy #1 & guy #2, if you have an arrest that you did not deserve, you may be excluded just for having gotten the short end of the stick or being in the wrong place at the wrong time at one point. It sucks, but some folks do judge a book by its cover.

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So much for being innocent unless found guilty.

I was arrested in '83 an officer saw me pulling a prank on a fraternity brother (tampering with an auto). Took his license plate off and sent him on a goose chase to find it. Friends bailed me out ($15) and went to court two months later. The prosecutor told me I need a lawyer or I won't be leaving the state after court. Judge asked me what Fraternity we were in, I answered and he said "we are not brothers" and don't break the law again in R.I. for a year and the records will be shredded. I didn't go back to R.I. for several years after that. I had a friend run my record about 15 years ago, came out clean. I wonder if a more stringent background check would find the arrest record.

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Originally Posted by 357and40

I agree on whose fault it is, but my point was that you stated arrests don't follow you when in fact they can. As much as we can make the analogy of guy #1 & guy #2, if you have an arrest that you did not deserve, you may be excluded just for having gotten the short end of the stick or being in the wrong place at the wrong time at one point. It sucks, but some folks do judge a book by its cover.

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and I addressed that in the follow up post. Let me be more specific;

If you get arrested for whatever, there has to be probable cause for such arrest. If it turns out to be malicious or just a plain old mistake, the arrest is stricken from the record. Judges do that all the time. However, if there is valid PC to the arrest, the arrest record stays because there is more than likely at least some element of guilt. Somebody can be factually guilty and be legally innocent. There are thousands upon thousands of examples of that, I'm sure we all could provide our own. And that is what an arrest record shows vs. a conviction record.

Fear or Respect the Police?

The blog written in the above link, was authored by a local radio talk show host. One of the reasons that I like him is because he's very pro 2A, and concealed carry, and isn't afraid to talk about it on air with professional candor.

anyway, I thought his essay was pertinent to this thread's content.

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When officers no longer see the public as a community to be served, but rather as an adversarial mass of potential criminals who need to be managed for the safety of the state, trouble isn’t too far off.

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Best line from the article. It sums up his point nicely.

I agree with timmy, that is a nice line... I do think it sums up the entire thread nicely. Let me toss another grenade though;

A large segment of society has turned to the police to become their daddy. What I mean by that is all the jack wagons that call the police when the neighbors dog poops in their yard, a stupid "road rage" incident (yes, 99% of them are absolutely stupid, created by both parties) or somebody left a mean facebook message, or their 7 year old isn't behaving... I could go on and on with examples. So, doesn't that create at least to some degree, the type of police/society relationship the quote above points out?

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Originally Posted by SIXTO

I agree with timmy, that is a nice line... I do think it sums up the entire thread nicely. Let me toss another grenade though;

A large segment of society has turned to the police to become their daddy. What I mean by that is all the jack wagons that call the police when the neighbors dog poops in their yard, a stupid "road rage" incident (yes, 99% of them are absolutely stupid, created by both parties) or somebody left a mean facebook message, or their 7 year old isn't behaving... I could go on and on with examples. So, doesn't that create at least to some degree, the type of police/society relationship the quote above points out?

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So basically we have a society that is becoming more and more immoral and irresponsible and our system of government is designed around the citizens generally behaving responsibly and morally. An interesting dichotomy exists here as our religious freedoms do not mandate religious beliefs at all, while historically moral behavior stemmed from teachings in various churches. Even Ben Franklin spoke of this sort of thing in his autobiography (p. 65 for example).

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Originally Posted by SIXTO

and I addressed that in the follow up post. Let me be more specific;

If you get arrested for whatever, there has to be probable cause for such arrest. If it turns out to be malicious or just a plain old mistake, the arrest is stricken from the record. Judges do that all the time. However, if there is valid PC to the arrest, the arrest record stays because there is more than likely at least some element of guilt. Somebody can be factually guilty and be legally innocent. There are thousands upon thousands of examples of that, I'm sure we all could provide our own. And that is what an arrest record shows vs. a conviction record.

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I think we are arguing the same point but addressing a different part of it. The only part I think we are not seeing the same is that when someone is exonerated, the arrest still remains on an FBI check. The person reviewing will still see that the person was arrested for whatever charge but it will not show the conviction. That was the case for one of the guys I spoke of earlier. He was arrested and they later determined he was passin through & happened to look similar to the guy they later arrested, tried & convicted.

Still showed up.

Sure there was PC since he was in the area & fit the description, but he just happened to be in the area & fit the description... He was innocent but as a result of the arrest showing up it disqualified him from the job because the guy that had final say wanted to ensure that nobody in his building had any arrests on their record & he did not want to hear any excuses. It sucked but it was the way it went down.

They SHOULD be removed if you never went to trial or were found to be INNOCENT (not just not guilty), but they aren't, at least in his case....

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Regarding what Timmy & Sixto brought up...

There are a lot of folks that want LEOs to be their babysitters, property managers, parents, people to tattle on the neighbors to... (An LEO buddy of mine has to walk an alderwoman to her car any time it is after dark because she is sure there are people out to get her... what a waste of taxpayer money.)

LEOs can be incredibly helpful but when you call them to tell them that your neighbor farted & you can smell it & don't like it, don't be surprised when they are too busy dealing with an assault call to give you a tissue & they prescribe you two doses of suck-it-up instead.

There are people that should not be LEOs and there are people who should not be on the street and there are the rest of us. It is getting the officers and the civilians working together to just plain keep the peace that is the key.

I really believe that most people that hate cops have a reason why and of those I believe that a portion brought it on themselves. I believe the other portion ended up dealing with one of the people that should not be a cop or should not be free & it did not end well.

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Originally Posted by rstickle

Some of the mistrust could well have something to do with the local Police Department's reputation. I don't know where they stand now, but my local County Police used to have a less than a stellar reputation.

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Exactly. I have nothing but respect and admiration for my local town and county LEOs. They are some of the finest human beings I have ever known, very level headed and courteous. 20 Miles down the road is a larger community and their officers are rough, discourteous and their integrity and honesty are always in question.

IMHO it depends on community and probably community standards.

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Originally Posted by SIXTO

I agree with timmy, that is a nice line... I do think it sums up the entire thread nicely. Let me toss another grenade though;

A large segment of society has turned to the police to become their daddy. What I mean by that is all the jack wagons that call the police when the neighbors dog poops in their yard, a stupid "road rage" incident (yes, 99% of them are absolutely stupid, created by both parties) or somebody left a mean facebook message, or their 7 year old isn't behaving... I could go on and on with examples. So, doesn't that create at least to some degree, the type of police/society relationship the quote above points out?

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I am not a cop but see it all the time in my line of work in probation. I have a juvenile and adult caseload. The Court just removed a juvenile from her home and placed her with her grandmother because she couldnt get along with her parents. First mistake. The grandmother was doing IMO for the added food stamps she would receive and now realizes the child is a hellion. She called me the other day to complain because the teenage was spending too much time on the internet and she couldnt get on, and that the girl was playing her music too loud while she was trying to watch TV. I told her "you wanted her...you got her. Quit whining to me and take charge of your house. If not call the social worker and have her remove her. Ill just tell the judge".

Why in the world does somebody on food stamps have Internet access at home?
Theres a large part of the problem...

I really do have a huge amount of respect for law enforcement, EMTs, firefighters etc. A huge amount of respect for the job they do and their willingness to be the ones to do it. That said, I don't trust them anymore than I trust anyone else. I'm not saying I distrust them because they're LEO, I just don't trust anyone really, and their position doesn't change that.

And don't even get me started on food stamps/welfare....

A large portion of my experiences with LEO's have been negative. I was unable to shoot on my own property, in a completely safe manner, for the last 3 years. The Sheriff's Department threatened us with public nuisance and disorderly conduct if we did. Between the liberal Sheriff and the corrupt county attorney, there was nothing that could be done. Thankfully, we managed to get a decent county attorney last election. She seems to be keeping the Sheriff in line, and I'm back to shooting on my own property.

That's just one of the issues I have with the local law enforcement. That and the pedophile that got on with the city PD by threatening a lawsuit gives me a very leery view of the LEO's around here.

That being said, the ones that are decent deserve the utmost respect. The rest don't deserve the time of day, IMO.