Negligent Firearms Discharge....

Negligent Firearms Discharge....

This is a discussion on Negligent Firearms Discharge.... within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Sorry folks but this is not an accident especially when both were "armorers". Glad both deputies were not more seriously injured. "Gruzinskas said the department ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Question Negligent Firearms Discharge....

    Sorry folks but this is not an accident especially when both were "armorers".

    Glad both deputies were not more seriously injured.

    "Gruzinskas said the department has started looking into whether there was some kind of break down in protocol that led to this". Good idea !

    Two West Virginia Deputies Accidentally Shot - Officer.com

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    Rule #1 -- always keep guns pointed in a safe direction.

    Cleaning a loaded pistol. Any chance there was a breakdown in protocol? I'm going to guess YES!!!!

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    Ex Member Array Bombsaway's Avatar
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    The two were working on the gun-- a .45-caliber glock semi-automatic, when the gun accidentally fired.

    How is it the gun's fault?

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    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    I have to ask a question and see if somebody can explain this to me. I have noticed a consistent opinion on this forum that we should not call unplanned discharges as accidents, rather as negligent discharges. Can somebody explain that to me? The way I see it, anything that happens without being intentional would be considered an accident. For example, we call them "auto accidents" instead of "negligent collisions" even though the same principle usually applies. A person driving a car is not paying attention or violating some kind of safety rule, and an accident occurs. If somebody falls off of a ladder, it is an accident, not "negligent ladder usage" or something to that effect.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

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    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    'accidents' are for children and idiots

    those old enough to play with dangerous items either have been trained or know when to leave well enough alone.
    thus their 'errors' are not accidents. they are negligence mixed with ignorance.

    you may call it an auto accident but one, or both of the drivers were at fault.
    liberal semantics leads to false conclusions. or:
    verbal shorthand for--he screwed up but feels bad enough without us telling him he made a mistake
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    Ex Member Array Bombsaway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    I have to ask a question and see if somebody can explain this to me. I have noticed a consistent opinion on this forum that we should not call unplanned discharges as accidents, rather as negligent discharges. Can somebody explain that to me? The way I see it, anything that happens without being intentional would be considered an accident. For example, we call them "auto accidents" instead of "negligent collisions" even though the same principle usually applies. A person driving a car is not paying attention or violating some kind of safety rule, and an accident occurs. If somebody falls off of a ladder, it is an accident, not "negligent ladder usage" or something to that effect.
    Actually, I prefer to call it "stupidity".

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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    I have to ask a question and see if somebody can explain this to me. I have noticed a consistent opinion on this forum that we should not call unplanned discharges as accidents, rather as negligent discharges. Can somebody explain that to me? The way I see it, anything that happens without being intentional would be considered an accident. For example, we call them "auto accidents" instead of "negligent collisions" even though the same principle usually applies. A person driving a car is not paying attention or violating some kind of safety rule, and an accident occurs. If somebody falls off of a ladder, it is an accident, not "negligent ladder usage" or something to that effect.
    There are not active campaigns to take away ladders from the public because they are dangerous. There are not active campaigns to take away cars from the public because they are dangerous. Yet there is a constant battle over firearm ownership. Part of that battle includes semantics and defining negligent use.

    My mom for example, thinks that it is quite likely that one of my firearms will spontaneously go off and shoot me or someone in my family. That is because she reads articles where apparent firearm experts (an often misconception of police officers) claim that their firearm spontaneously discharged and therefore it was an accident and not their fault. The reality is that most often the operator was negligent, hence the emphasis on that term. IMHO, of course.
    bds9009 likes this.
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    Member Array ChrisMia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    I have to ask a question and see if somebody can explain this to me. I have noticed a consistent opinion on this forum that we should not call unplanned discharges as accidents, rather as negligent discharges. Can somebody explain that to me? The way I see it, anything that happens without being intentional would be considered an accident. For example, we call them "auto accidents" instead of "negligent collisions" even though the same principle usually applies. A person driving a car is not paying attention or violating some kind of safety rule, and an accident occurs. If somebody falls off of a ladder, it is an accident, not "negligent ladder usage" or something to that effect.
    As I understand it, "accidental discharge" is when a legitimate flaw/defect in the firearm causes it to fire (as a crazy hypothetical, you rack the slide and the gun goes off even though your finger wasn't even near the trigger)

    On the other hand, a "negligent discharge" is when the user causes the discharge "not on purpose" - usually because of not being careful enough. Some may say it's splitting hairs or a distinction without a difference, but I see it (typical lawyer mind, right? )

    The same can be said of your car and ladder accidents - they either got hurt because the brakes went out on the car or the ladder step gave way (i.e. an accident as it relates to their actions), or because they ran the stop light or leaned out too far from the ladder (i.e. they weren't being careful enough).



    And claude, I wouldn't pin it on liberal semantics - it's really much broader than that. What it boils down to is a passive way to say that something went wrong without accepting responsibility for it, and that's something that crosses party/ideological lines all day long. Lord knows we heard the phrase "mistakes were made" coming out of Washington during the W. years. It's an all-too instinctive human reaction to want to accept responsibility for positive things and shrink from it for negative ones.

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    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisMia View Post
    As I understand it, "accidental discharge" is when a legitimate flaw/defect in the firearm causes it to fire (as a crazy hypothetical, you rack the slide and the gun goes off even though your finger wasn't even near the trigger)

    On the other hand, a "negligent discharge" is when the user causes the discharge "not on purpose" - some may say it's splitting hairs, but I see the distinction (typical lawyer mind, right? )

    And claude, I wouldn't pin it on liberal semantics - it's really much broader than that. What it boils down to is a passive way to say that something went wrong without accepting responsibility for it, and that's something that crosses party/ideological lines all day long. Lord knows we heard the phrase "mistakes were made" coming out of Washington during the W. years. It's an all-too instinctive human reaction to want to accept responsibility for positive things and shrink from it for negative ones.
    Well answered ChrisMia.

    As a note the State of Florida's offical term is "Traffic Crash".

    Somebody did something to cause the event.

    If it is a mechanical malfunction then that would go in the Crash Report Narrative.

    OS
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    "A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".

    http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

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    Member Array hoghunter84's Avatar
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    Negligent baby making comes to mind in some of these cases.

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    Senior Member Array MotorCityGun's Avatar
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    As my (deceased) father-in-law used to always say, "There's no such thing as an accident". He was a scuba diver and private pilot until his late 70's, worked in the trades until he was 82, built his own home from ground up, (Purple Heart) veteran of WWII, etc. When he spoke, I'd listen (intently).

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    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    Not being sure what the malfunction was, maybe that's part of the reason it wasn't unloaded before working on it. The slide being stuck would explain how they may have been working on that issue with a round chambered. Why it wasn't worked on in a safer setting with the muzzle pointed in a better direction, I don't know.
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    Split Decision. That the gun fired, may have been a malfunction/accident. That bodies were in line to be struck by the projectile, negligent.
    Tzadik and rammerjammer like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School View Post
    "Gruzinskas said the department has started looking into whether there was some kind of break down in protocol that led to this". Good idea !
    If there wasn't, than I would consider their protocols to be extremely lacking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Split Decision. That the gun fired, may have been a malfunction/accident. That bodies were in line to be struck by the projectile, negligent.
    OTOH, there should never be a round in the chamber while "working on it."

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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    He said a department-owned gun malfunctioned and discharged while the deputies were working on it.
    Surely they are investigating the malfunction? I am curious to know what malfunction they find in the hardware that created this accident.
    If were actually a equipment malfunction would not the manufacturer be involved in the investigation?

    Michael

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