Moving and shooting

This is a discussion on Moving and shooting within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I took a tactical handgun class this weekend. During the classroom portion we were shown a video where the owner of the academy interviewed Dennis ...

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    VIP Member Array ExactlyMyPoint's Avatar
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    Moving and shooting

    I took a tactical handgun class this weekend. During the classroom portion we were shown a video where the owner of the academy interviewed Dennis Tueller or the famed Tueller drill. Real nice guy. Calm, professional, etc. During the interview, Tueller mentioned that until the 1990's or so, police shooting training ONLY taught to stand stationary and shoot at an oncoming attacker. He gave a few reasons, but we now know in retrospect that shooting AND moving in the face of an oncoming attacker is the better tactic.

    The question I have is this. Moving and shooting is NOT new. I am sure the military has been using this forever. Why did it take so long for law enforcement to realize this is a good tactic and incorporate it into their training regimen?
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    Member Array Erick46590's Avatar
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    My only guess (only reason i can think of) is that maybe they wanted them to stand completely still and shoot due to the fact that civilians may be around and not all officers are very well trained and they wanted to lower the possibility of shooting an innocent person? just a guess.
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    Shooting and moving HAS been around for a long time. The issue is moving and shooting accurately.
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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExactlyMyPoint View Post
    Why did it take so long for law enforcement to realize this is a good tactic and incorporate it into their training regimen?
    Because everyone wants to remain in their comfort zone.

    It's a skill that people may not have, don't want to develop and therefore won't go near. After all, they need to look good in front of students.

    Additionally, a lot of training was segmented.

    Defensive tatics people taught wrestling around with people.
    Shooting instructors taught shooting.

    Nobody taught an integrated platform, so people were left with a gap in the training that was just...their. It's the way it is because it's the way it is, dam it!

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    From what I've learned, never having served in the armed forces, they train to the lowest possible state of readiness for most soldiers. Something about budget limitations factor in as well. Soldiers tend to shoot from cover or shoot while seeking cover. Rifle rounds sting a lot more than pistol rounds. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
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    Whats sad is that most agencies still require only a 85 to pass quall's,and that is done at stationary targets,and I personally have seen one local agencie drop their quall's to a 75,pitifull and the course is only a 50 round course,I pray that their targets never"get off the X" on these officers!We did a vehicle assault and defense class the last three days of July,it was free to all local law enforcement,we have in total about 500 officers in my county only 2 showed up,most officers are just not going to put out more than they have too,I don't understand it I will take all the training I can,and will steal someone elses teachings if I think they are able to be applied in the real world.

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    On thing to remember is that training and qualification are two different things. We qualify twice a year to the state standards... admittedly, that is pitiful. But, that is just the state requirement to be able to carry a gun as an LEO. That does not mean that is all that is done. Far from it. Most LEO training is not and should not be publicized as to exactly what is done. All that matters is that the individual LEO can and did pass whatever standards are set by his state.

    That is like saying the CCW course is "training" and really readies a person for a lethal encounter. Thats just silly... all the CCW course does is prove that you can perform at the absolute minimum standards. I would hope that a CCW'r would realize that and seek more and actual training.
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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExactlyMyPoint
    Why did it take so long for law enforcement to realize this is a good tactic and incorporate it into their training regimen?
    There is always such things such as budget, liability and reluctance to implement change.

    Regardless of the foregoing, I think that there was another factor. That was the realization that while movement when being shot at was instinctive to many, there were many that it was not. There were enough that it was not, that it was recognized that it was necessary that it be trained to all. This, I believe was a major factor in the change.

    My time was long before movement was taught and I don't remember any that I worked with or myself standing still when being shot at. Everyone was hauling butt. Undoubtedly there were some that did not, although I don't recall any, but they were in the minority.
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    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExactlyMyPoint View Post
    The question I have is this. Moving and shooting is NOT new. I am sure the military has been using this forever. Why did it take so long for law enforcement to realize this is a good tactic and incorporate it into their training regimen?
    Because most of the formal handgun training of the 20th century derived from competition marksmanship (which basically meant bullseye), not tactical or action shooting. That's why Cooper's techniques became known as the Modern Pistol technique...although by some accounting two-handed combat shooting was actually taught much earlier, prior to WWI, and then was lost thereafter.

    The rough timeline I have from the various classes and instructors who have informed me goes something like this: one-handed "bullseye" style marksmanship permeated the military after WWI; the FBI picked up its training regimen from the military after WWII; the FBI system trickled down to various state/local PDs in the '50s and '60s. The Modern Technique grew out of the Southwest Combat Pistol League in, I think, the early '60s. Modern Technique did not start being adopted by a large number of police departments until semi-autos came into issue, which pushes us into the late '70s, early '80s...and Tueller's results were first published in 1983.
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