What is "Winning" to the Islamic Terrorists? - Page 2

What is "Winning" to the Islamic Terrorists?

This is a discussion on What is "Winning" to the Islamic Terrorists? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by rodc13 I see this approach advocated by a number of people. Could you expand on it? Exactly what would be the steps ...

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Thread: What is "Winning" to the Islamic Terrorists?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodc13
    I see this approach advocated by a number of people. Could you expand on it? Exactly what would be the steps you'd take?
    In '82, or so, during the wave of Fundamentalist kidnapping of foreigners, a couple of Soviet diplomats were taken. Biting the hand that feeds is unwise. Within two weeks, the parents of the kidnappers received boxes on their doorsteps- with the heads and genitals of the kidnappers (their sons). The Soviets had no further problems, until the Chechin war.

    BH6, it is not difficult to support lowflyers statement. As it is currently presented, Islam is the religion of the ignorant. There is no societal push for peasant-literacy, much like the pre-Reformation Christian church. If you cannot read the "instruction book", you cannot intelligently say you are following the rules- you do what the coach tells you.

    Interestingly enough, the hardcore fundamentalists are still communist backed. Communists like ignorant peasants- keeps them in power. While Islam is a volatile tool, the Russians and Chinese are certainly not averse to using it. Arguably, Moslem leadership is literally psychopathic- they will accept aid from any source to fund their killing. Moral/religious direction has nothing to do with it, from the top. How else would you explain the constructive relationships developed in the Bekka Valley- the PRA, Hezzb., Entafada, PLF, FARC, Basques, etc.? Essentially, we are caught between to poles- the Islamic fascists (their structure can be clearly defined this way), and the Communists. Both seek the destruction of the capitalist system, with its individual empowerment ideals. You cannot "rule" a free, educated, armed, populace.

    As the Imams currently tell their followers that martyrs are blessed, and that the killers of Jews and Infidels are divine, and as (proportionately) few Moslems are educated/socially tractable enough to believe otherwise- the "religion" worships death. (ie., "I die and take you with me....", the endgame for both worshiper and infidel is death.)


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72
    In '82, or so, during the wave of Fundamentalist kidnapping of foreigners, a couple of Soviet diplomats were taken. Biting the hand that feeds is unwise. Within two weeks, the parents of the kidnappers received boxes on their doorsteps- with the heads and genitals of the kidnappers (their sons). The Soviets had no further problems, until the Chechin war.
    Okay, one vote for mutilating kidnappers. Other suggestions?
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  3. #18
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    Steady folks - not sure we are going in a very good direction!

    We do not want major in depth religious debate and whatever we might think re ''punishments'' etc - don't want to go downhill.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

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  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    hmm so the thread has progressed to the point that " shoot them all and let god sort hem out " would not be approprate ?? guess i just as well not talk more on it then lol .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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  5. #20
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Sorry, Chris. I shouldn't have started the questions the way I did. I know better, and I apologize.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  6. #21
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    No sweat - I am only trying to achieve slight limitation rather than any censorship!!

    This old cynic knows how fast ''certain subjects'' can careen in a downhill direction!
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodc13
    Okay, one vote for mutilating kidnappers. Other suggestions?
    Sadly the tactic worked. I also remember "hearing" about the incident (Don't ask), and the location. The kidnapping of Americans continued, no further Soviets were bothered.

    however, I for one, really don't want to debate the morality of this in public, at least here.
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

  8. #23
    Member Array Blackhawk6's Avatar
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    Rob72,

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72
    As it is currently presented, Islam is the religion of the ignorant. There is no societal push for peasant-literacy, much like the pre-Reformation Christian church. If you cannot read the "instruction book", you cannot intelligently say you are following the rules- you do what the coach tells you.
    Correct. The reason that there is no societal push for literacy is becasue those in power would rather take another vacation to the Riviera or build another Palace than correct the shortcomings of the population. See #6 in the list of reasons Al Qaeda hates the U.S.

    Let's examine Lowflyer's earlier statement:
    I believe the root cause of Al Qaeda's violence is just plane racism and intolerance of others' beliefs.
    As I have encountered Caucasian, Asian, Negro and Black Al Qaeda members, I am not sure which race they oppose. Hispanics? Polynesians? As you correctly point out, as there is very little discrimination with regard to whom they are willing to work with, race does not appear to be an issue.

    As to intolerance of others beliefs, truth be told, we are not very tolerant either. That does not make us bad people. Every society is intolerant, to some degree, of those beliefs which do not meet its societal norms.

    It is rooted in a bastardized interpretation of their own messed up religion. It is messed up because death is at its core. Other religions celebrate life. Their religion celebrates death.
    As Chris has already warned us about traveling too far down the religious path, I will just recommend that you do some reading about the methods Christianity and Judaeism have employed "in the name of God" throughout history. Muslims hardly have the market cornered on killing "in the name of God" nor are martyr's unique to Islam.

    What sets this current wave of terrorism apart from the terrorism most people are familiar with is that it is religiously rather than politically motivated. What further complicates the situation is that Muslims tend to identify with their religion as opposed to their nationality, especially in poorer countries. In fact, there are many Muslims who do not understand that they are citizens of a nation.

  9. #24
    Member Array jimbthestripper's Avatar
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    in front of you

    Personally i do not believe that their goal is to eliminate those that
    don't subscribe to their beliefs and policies. They? have succeeded in
    disrupting your life and have added a great deal of expense to
    everyday existence in free countries.

    The other item we all need is energy and that has certainly been
    affected by the terrorists strategies.

    JimB

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodc13
    I see this approach advocated by a number of people. Could you expand on it? Exactly what would be the steps you'd take?
    Two campaings come to mind when I talk about succesful confrontation against fanatic muslims. The first one ended in 1492 when the moors were driven off Spain. It was your middle ages/Reinassance no-holds-barred fight that incidentally took many years. The second was the Moro insurrection in the Phillipines.
    Both were based in the use of terror (not terrorism) against the fundamentalist. Add a third if we include the Barbary Coast Pirates.

    There was one episode of the now defunct series Over There that I liked. It was the one about a bunch of Stingers stolen by insurgents (There are always stolen stingers...wonder why) and they had a prisioner who refused to talk. An interrogator was sent to deal with the guy and he made him talk without torture...physical that is. One of the soldiers ask the interrogators how can you defeat somebody who is not afraid to die. The interrogator responded "You take death out the equation." More to the point, you take their "glorious death with virgins et all" out and play with his fears. We know there is a heavy albeit misguided religious component to the fundamentalist and we should learn it and use it against them. Use their superstitions too like it was done in the Phillipines. And above all, we must quit fearing what other people and countries will say about our methods and get the job done.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  11. #26
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    jimbthestripper...you said:
    "Personally i do not believe that their goal is to eliminate those that
    don't subscribe to their beliefs and policies."

    You would be wrong about that.

    Remember that not all Muslims are radical fanatics.
    It's important to keep that in mind.
    The radical fanatics espouse a very corrupt form of Islam and "winning" to them is anything that gets them closer to the destruction of the Israel...the total annihilation of the Jewish people - The complete downfall of America & all Christian based countries and people & total power for them and only their exact belief system to the elimination of all others.
    That is the ultimate goal of the radical fanatic element.
    They want the destruction of the Jews and any non~Jew may have the choice to convert to Islam or face certain death.
    They also need to die as Martyrs if they are going to get 72 mansions - each filled with 72 beds & each of those beds filled with 72 virgins.
    Anything or any action that gets them one tiny notch closer to the above goals would be considered "winning" to them.

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  13. #28
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk6

    Let's examine Lowflyer's earlier statement:

    As I have encountered Caucasian, Asian, Negro and Black Al Qaeda members, I am not sure which race they oppose. Hispanics? Polynesians? As you correctly point out, as there is very little discrimination with regard to whom they are willing to work with, race does not appear to be an issue..
    Have you encountered any Jewish Al Qaeda? While they will happily employ nearly anyone (their employees are disposable), it is a fact that the vast majority of them are arab. Racism is the belief that one's own race/creed/ethnicity is inherently inferior or superior to that of another or others. Ethnicity may refer to religion as much as national origin or physical characteristics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk6
    As to intolerance of others beliefs, truth be told, we are not very tolerant either. That does not make us bad people. Every society is intolerant, to some degree, of those beliefs which do not meet its societal norms.
    Fine. Tolerance is measured in degrees then. They have substantially less tolerance than we do. We need to give them some of our excess tolerance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk6
    As Chris has already warned us about traveling too far down the religious path, I will just recommend that you do some reading about the methods Christianity and Judaeism have employed "in the name of God" throughout history. Muslims hardly have the market cornered on killing "in the name of God" nor are martyr's unique to Islam.
    Geez, let's not drag up the Crusades for this argument. That's just plain ridiculous. Modern Christians and Jews have not justified any killing in the name of religion that I am aware of for like seven hundred years or so. We simply don't see Christians, Jews, Mormons, Bhuddists, etc... strapping bombs to their chests and walking into crowds of innocent people yelling, "Jesus loves you!" as they detonate exlosives laden with ball bearings and nails for max carnage. Most folks would consider them mentally ill if they did. Islamic jihadists are not considered mentally ill. They are held up as heroes. Their families receive financial rewards and the like. Consider the rhetoric spewing from Ahmanutjob and Bin Hidin'. It's all about Jihad and the anhilation of anyone that is not Muslim. So, yeah, I believe they have the homicidal religious martyrdom market fairly well locked up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk6
    What sets this current wave of terrorism apart from the terrorism most people are familiar with is that it is religiously rather than politically motivated.
    What constitutes the "current wave?" Are we talking 1979 and later? What "politically motivated" terrorism are most people familiar with? Is that like Kim Jong Il firing a missle over Japan?

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array mark555's Avatar
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    Ok… I’ll weigh in, and put in my .02 or less worth. I think that they want to destroy us and everything the US stands for. That is the simplistic answer. If you can create a state of fear by using terror then you are on your way to accomplish your goals. How many governments have been toppled because of terror attacks that destabilized the governments? Look at the economic impact on us from the trade center attacks. Think about the changes we are now living with that you never would have thought about six years ago, armed Army National Guardsmen in the airports. Remember the LA riots? They would not deploy the California ANG for two days after the start of the riots because they had fully automatic weapons. Things have changed and will change more as our war on terror progresses.

    Don’t get me wrong I think that Israel is doing the right thing and that we need to expand or at least remove some of our self imposed shackles when dealing with the terror organizations.

    A friend of mine told me a story about getting mortared every so often (he is in Iraq) and after the first round left the tube we were able to silence the mortar position and the bad guys weren’t able to hit anything with the rounds they were getting off. Then all of a sudden they started to hit things and our guys were having trouble finding the mortar position. Our people did find it and set up and caught the leader of the mortar position. US interrogators could not get any information out of him so they turned him over to Pakistani intelligence they found out that he was a Syrian Army officer. Now is this just a story or is there some truth to it? I don’t know I was not there.

    The thing is terrorist know no rules except to create terror. They follow no rules of warfare. I do not think that we can win if we play the romantic cowboy image, “Howdy Madame where is that no good Arab? Thank you Madame, you take care now.” In other words to hell with the ACLU, Amnesty International, Americas Watch and all the other bleeding hart America is evil organizations. I do not think that we will benefit ourselves by locking up terrorists. You can not rehabilitate a terrorist. They hated you then, they hate you now and they will hate you tomorrow. One of Israel’s problems is that the terrorists keep taking their soldiers and trying to exchange them for terrorists in Israeli jails. If they are not in jail they can’t be exchanged. The down side is that it removes any reason to keep the soldiers alive.

    There is/was a book out (now out of print) called the “Devils Guard” it is about a demy brigade of French Foreign Legion in Viet Nam. Ok actually they were former German SS troops that the French conscripted to fight in Viet Nam. It’s a great read and addresses dealing with terrorists.
    "Hell of a thing, killin' a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have."
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  15. #30
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    Have you encountered any Jewish Al Qaeda? While they will happily employ nearly anyone (their employees are disposable), it is a fact that the vast majority of them are arab.
    The vast majority are Arab because the vast majority of Muslims are Arab. You contention is that they are racist toward Jews? Perhaps. But last time I check the world Trade Center was in America. The Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya were American not Isreali. The USS Cole was an American warship, not an Israeli warship. The subway bombings occurred in London not Tel Aviv.

    Al Qaeda may not like the Jews, but its violence is directed at America and her allies.

    Tolerance is measured in degrees then. They have substantially less tolerance than we do.
    Exactly.

    Geez, let's not drag up the Crusades for this argument. That's just plain ridiculous. Modern Christians and Jews have not justified any killing in the name of religion that I am aware of for like seven hundred years or so.
    We do not have to go as far back as the Crusades. (Though the Arabs will. Time is not emphasized in their culture as it is in ours)

    Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland. Catholics killing Protestants and evolving bombing to a high art form. Incidentally, while "suicide/homicide bombong was originated by the Tamil Tigers, the IRA created "Homicide Bombers by Proxy." I simply kidnap your family before you leave for work and force you to drive the car bomb. Refuse? A Black & Decker drill to your daughter's knee usually will convince you.

    Need another example. How about the Sabra and Shatila massacre in Lebanon in 1982 where Lebanese Christian militias slaughtered hundreds of Palestinian refugees. Israel armed and trained the militia and was guarding the camps at the time the massacre occurred.

    While we are talking about Israel, perhaps you would like to read up on the Haganah and their aactions against the British in the post-WWII/pre-Israel period. Wikipedia has a list of its famous members. See where they are now.

    Want a more recent example close to home? Google up "Abortion Clinic Bombings" and look at the violence perpetrated by people who consider themselves Christian.

    Terrorism has been waged by every race and by every creed.

    What constitutes the "current wave?" Are we talking 1979 and later? What "politically motivated" terrorism are most people familiar with? Is that like Kim Jong Il firing a missle over Japan?
    The current wave I referred to is transnational terrorism. Previously, terrorism was confined to/targeted at specific geographic regions/governments. (i.e. Japanese Red brigade to Japan, IRA to the U.K., FARC to Columbia, Basque sepratists to Spain, the PLO to the Middle East.)

    Look, I am not excusing or justifying terrorist acts by anyone. I have confronted those who would do harm to my country and will continue to do so for as long as I am permitted.

    This problem is not as simple as Anderson Cooper or Geraldo would have you believe. The simple fact is that it is a complex cultural and historical web that has gotten us to this point. A lot of people have dirt on there hands, though some more than others. If you choose to believe that Al Qaeda hates you because you have HBO, drink Budweiser and have a subscription to Playboy, that is fine. But you would be wrong.

    One solution to this problem is to "kill them all" and, in all honesty, it would probably be the easiest way to go. However, since world opinion and, more importantly, U.S.-public opinion are unlikely to support that solution we have to find another way. We can attempt to address some of the root causes but that requires us to understand what they are. Again, they are not the Constitution or the fact your wife shops at the Gap.

    I would encourage you to do yourself, your family and your Nation a favor. Read up on the problem and proposed solutions. Michael Scheuer's books Imperial Hubris and Through Our Enemies' Eyes are good, as are LTC Ralph Peters book Fighting For the Future: Will America Triumph?, Robert Kaplan's book Warrior Politics: Why Leadership Demands a pagan Ethos. I would also recommend you read the National Strategy for Combating Terrorism (link below). At least that way you can determine if your elected representatives are actually helping or impeding our efforts to win.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...m_strategy.pdf

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