This is a discussion on Women on submarines as soon as next week...sorry not a fan within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Cold Shot Women generally don't bring a lot to the table in most professions. Oh oh, yer gonna' get slapped up silly ...
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
I have two cats, a boy and a momma cat. Guess who is the better huntress (did I give it away?) I think the mixed crew will work as well as it does in the private sector. However, in the workplace, in the foxhole, and on board ship, there will bound to be distractions and hormones. Do we really hear about the assaults and pregnancies on our floating cities? What will happen when the GLBT activists require same sex marriages hundreds of feet under the waves? Jefferson said that our men and women, young and old of the American revolution, fought so that their children could study philosophy, music, and art.
Now try to tell the men of the French resistance that women bring nothing to the table. I've lived through the Korean war, the cold war, the Vietnam war, and the so called "peace dividend" after the fall of the USSR. The world is no safer, because the military-industrial-NWO elites keep stirring the pot for their profit, while the flower of our youth bleed in the sand. Tell you what, send the boys and girls home to have a happy life, and send us old folks and politicians out there to do the banksters dirty work. I've had a good life, with children and grandchildren, and I'm determined to keep them safe. So what if I have to stop and pee every ten minutes. Grandma will show them what a hot flash really means. Peace.
Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776
Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
-Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95
Thanks for the laugh gunthorp - it was getting mighty heavy in here!
I know a lot about human nature, and I have little doubt there will be a lot of hanky panky spanky "oops, I'm pregnant" going on.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
Lots of women on aircraft carriers?
Women allowed to fight?
Gays in the same foxholes with straight men?
Over and over this stuff comes up, and over and over, our incredible military is insulted and underestimated. They are professional soldiers, the best in the world. They have always moved forward with society (slowly and grudgingly sometimes) and never lost their professionalism, skill, and effectiveness.
See above. The same kvetching and hand-wringing was there for every other group that was arbitrarily discriminated against in the past. I have no doubt that there are those in the military against this move. That doesn't make them right. And fortunately, they will follow orders.Ask any real Commanding Officer (not some desk jockey political appointee) what they think about it (privately and off the record) and see what they have to say about it...but do it only if you can handle the truth.
I've flown with many, many female aircrew members. Some good, some not so good, just like the men. While I can somewhat reluctantly agree with the idea that America just shouldn't send our wives and daughters to war, preserving some "dirty sailor traditions" is a ridiculous reason for not allowing women to serve. Seriously? You can't walk around naked anymore or put on whatever homo-erotic skits that used to qualifiy as humor in the US Navy? Asinine. And any woman who divorces her husband b/c he has to work next to a woman isn't very much of a wife. I'd also be willing to wager that many of the posters who don't like this idea are 55+ years of age. Times have changed, attitudes have changed. If you don't like it, then you should probably opt out of the all-volunteer force. You, me, or the guy next door doesn't have a say in whether women can fly airplanes, shoot a rifle, or serve on a sub. Seriously, I understand people have opinions on women in combat, but let's keep the focus on the physical limitations and not on ridiculous traditions or the spectre of increased sexual relations among the troops.
Kim Campbell (pilot) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I fit the 55+ crowd and I have NO problem with women serving. I do have a problem with them having a modified physical training requirement for the same job as a man. If they can do the same exact task then by all means, jump right in there.
I don't know how it is today but in the early 70s they had modified PT and lesser requirements for lifting and other physical traits. That didn't work too well but there were many that could do the same and I was comfortable with them having my life in their hands.
I am all for equal rights and treatment. A unit eats, sleeps, showers, goes to the head, trains, DOES EVERYTHING together. Open the draft to women, mandate the same exact training regiments, etc. You want to defend our country, I will gladly accept that generous and courageous offer, just do not expect special treatment based on gender. You want to be a soldier? I salute you.
I will YET AGAIN play the nerd card... Look at Vasquez in the movie Aliens... Would you trust her to have your back? I sure would.
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
- Roy Batty
Looks like the thread's original premise evolved into a debate about equal gender-based rights, mental capacity and/or skill levels in non-physically demanding occupations - of which there is no valid argument to allege any superiority on either side. The question also had nothing to do with arguing equal attributes or the ability to perform any highly-technical task with the same degree of proficiency regardless of gender.
The question was "what problems can be expected when a chicken is running at equal speed among a pack of hungry coyotes?"
In this particular arena, equal skill, mental capacity, technical knowledge and performance ability has nothing to do with with the inherent peril of the scenario's basic disregard of nature's primordial drives and instincts that all the laws on the planet are difficult to control or suppress - especially in long-term, extremely close-quarter, captive environments. The mixed pack of coyotes and a chicken can probably run together for reasonable periods as long they are all well-fed and regularly split up to go their separate ways to feed themselves before getting together again for the next joint run. However, the longer they run together in tight formation without breaking up to feed, increasing hunger will quickly begin diverting the focus of the pack's majority away from their intended pursuit and more toward "what's for dinner". Even if the chicken was a rooster or a hen that was as strong as (or wanted to be) a rooster, it is still a chicken dinner in the eyes of the hungry coyotes.
Even in the relatively close confines of a small ship, there is still a reasonable amount of room for the chicken(s) and coyotes to maintain some degree of individual "space", allow a tiny bit of privacy, and provide the ability to frequently escape the ship's confines to go out on deck for some fresh air and sunshine. My son is currently under some distant ocean (that only God and the Navy knows where) on a relatively large "boomer" (converted Trident-class now carrying a belly full of Tomahawk cruise missles); and even with the "larger" interior, the coyotes are still pretty much packed almost nose-to-tail like a sled-dog team without seeing the sunshine for weeks at a time. According to him, a chicken on the boat is going to eventually cause one of the hungry coyote's attention to be diverted from a critical task that could easily be the last mistake made for all parties concerned. He has expressed very great reservations about the idea which have nothing to do with equality, ability or professional performance.
Magazine <> clip - know the difference
martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know
OK...I gotta word this to bring back to the points I had in mind...unfortunately that's not easy to do. The problem here is I spent 6 years (2001-2007) stationed on board a submarine (USS Miami), a fast attack boat half the size of a boomer. Conveying the attitude and feelings of the crew as one goes through the qualification process is almost impossible but I'm gonna try.
When one shows up brand new to the boat he is unqualified and untrusted. The learning curve to understand the different aspects of operations on board a submarine is rediculously steep. The reason for this is when you show up you get a stack of qualification cards. Within these are lists of subjects with a space for a designated qualified individual to sign when you go to him for a "check out." The qualified individual will test your knowledge by quizzing you on whatever subject that may be. I was a nuclear operator so the majority of my qual cards had to do with the engineering spaces and the reactor itself. When you have finished all of the "checkouts" in a particular area you will go to several division officers and then department heads and in some cases the XO and then the CO (my final qualification for Reactor Operator and Shutdown Reactor Operator where with the captain). Also everyone gets a Submarine qual card (this is to receive the mandatory submarine warefare pin you see in my avatar. All of these qual cards are required to be completed within a certain amount of time.
Ok first of all this process sucks for the individual that is in quals (which may last well over a year) but it works. It weeds out the ones who don't have the intestinal fotutude to undergo trying experiences. Also if you say the wrong thing to the wrong person good luck getting qualified. Within a crew of a 120 guys your reputation is known very quickly...there are no secrets. If you get the reputation of being a dirtbag then most everyone you go to to get a checkout "won't have time," or is going to give the hardest time of your life to get that signature. This is the right of passage for the submariner. This is the common bond that makes the whole crew, for better or worse, know everyones first name from the captain down. So you can imagine political correctness goes out the window as soon as the boats underway (assuming we don't have an inspection team on board or something.)
OK second and this is to Lima and Cammo, I have nothing but respect for women who wish to serve their country nor do I believe that women can't do the job (these women completed the Naval Nuclear Power Training pipeline which in my opinion is the most demanding academic environment in the world, so yeah they're plenty intelligent.) The problem comes from what happens when your in close proximity to someone you don't like (trust me this happens and is the worse cased scenario.) You get put in a watch section with someone who doesn't play well with others for a six month deployment, where you get the joy of spending the vast majority of your waking time with them...this sucks. Now here's for the tough part...in my experience in an all male envoronment men know how to shut the hell up and just endure. 2 guys in this situation will with few exception will learn to just shut their mouths and get through it without killing each other. In my civilian experience with office politics...well lets leave it at, as a rule women are not so good at this.
Now alot of this stems from the fact that people don't like change, including me. I guess women on Submarines was inevitable but I'm glad it happened after my time in the navy. Franckly I like the way it was when I was in and it won't be the same.
Lastly for you who would insult submariner traditions by flippantly saying they can just change and that's a good thing...remember these traditions are what binds the submarine force into the extreemly tight nit community that it is. That being said my responce would be no thanks, there is something wrong with having change forced upon your traditions.