Women on submarines as soon as next week...sorry not a fan

This is a discussion on Women on submarines as soon as next week...sorry not a fan within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by bmcgilvray It's a shameful commentary on our society today. I'm just old fashioned enough to think that a society that has no ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    It's a shameful commentary on our society today. I'm just old fashioned enough to think that a society that has no more respect for its women than to send them off to war, putting them in harm's way, is a sick society.

    Equality just ain't all it's cracked up to be.
    I'm in this camp. I know and understand all the arguments for and against but I have never been comfortable thinking of women, (wives, daughters, sisters) in combat roles. I never will be. What I find particularly distasteful is hearing about young women shipped off to war zones leaving their small children behind. Good God, should we really be sending mothers of small children into combat zones? Sick society indeed.
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  3. #32
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    When I started my career working in the woods back in the 80's it was still mainly a man's job but woman were pushing there way in. There was a lot of resentment from the guys as most of the woman were getting hired through equal rights and quota's. Basically the white male was now being discriminated against.

    My pholosopy then and now about woman or even wimpy guys in a physical male dominated job is if they can do the job then great, if they can't then they will get no break from me. I have had woman that expected me to carry more gear in my pack because there's was to heavy, need more brakes because they couldn't keep up, and generally play the girl card until they finally figured out I didn't care. Now on the other hand there has been quite a few woman along the way that have excelled at the job and could hike my butt into the ground, pound more fire line, run a saw better and longer then most men. These woman are few and far between but there out there.

    As far as woman in harms way, I say if they can do the job and want to go get killed then let them go. This day and age everyone wants to be treated equal so let's make it equal, why is it always the man's job to go off to war and get killed?

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by muddy View Post
    When I started my career working in the woods back in the 80's it was still mainly a man's job but woman were pushing there way in. There was a lot of resentment from the guys as most of the woman were getting hired through equal rights and quota's. Basically the white male was now being discriminated against.

    My pholosopy then and now about woman or even wimpy guys in a physical male dominated job is if they can do the job then great, if they can't then they will get no break from me. I have had woman that expected me to carry more gear in my pack because there's was to heavy, need more brakes because they couldn't keep up, and generally play the girl card until they finally figured out I didn't care. Now on the other hand there has been quite a few woman along the way that have excelled at the job and could hike my butt into the ground, pound more fire line, run a saw better and longer then most men. These woman are few and far between but there out there.

    As far as woman in harms way, I say if they can do the job and want to go get killed then let them go. This day and age everyone wants to be treated equal so let's make it equal, why is it always the man's job to go off to war and get killed?
    OK I would like to note with technology on board war time or peace time off the coast of somewhere I can't talk about or in the carribian, the coffee still tasted the same. Alot of REALLY bad things have to happen before anyone on a submarine is dying in combat. Hell our own surface navy can't find us and trust me when I say other countries CAN NOT track us.

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    why is it always the man's job to go off to war and get killed?
    We are men. It's what we do.
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  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    Women generally don't bring a lot to the table in most professions.
    Very interesting post ... ...
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  7. #36
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    Hell our own surface navy can't find us and trust me when I say other countries CAN NOT track us
    I am very glad to read that! Most excellent.
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  8. #37
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    Women generally don't bring a lot to the table in most professions.
    Having worked with women for years in both supervisory and subordinate roles I must wholeheartedly disagree with the quoted statement.
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  9. #38
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    OK, I gonna sound-off on this. Like doodle, this IS my area of expertiece......although I'm a 'coner' and not one of them Rickover Univerisity larvi.......HAhahaha. (HAD to go there)

    I'm a submariner. I've done 19 years and 10 months within the submarine community. I retire in January. I've been on the Fast-Attacks in the Pacific.......done a LOT of 'stuff'....... ya know, that Tom Clancy kinda stuff ya can't 'talk' about. I've been serving in the SSBN 'boomer' fleet for the last ten years under the Atlantic. Like doodle (and his avatar) I earned my dolphins. Dunno what that means?......then use your google-fu and look it up.

    I'm retiring off my final command, the USS Wyoming (SSBN 742) (Blue). This boat (both crews) will be checking onboard, in January, her first TWO women. It's expected to be the first sub to get underway with women onboard, although that may change...... underway schedules change with the wind....but the women are coming and their here to stay. Argee or disagree, it matters not. We, as submariners, AND as humans, resist change. This is good, change I mean. It will be EXTREEMLY diffrent, and difficult, to assimalate this change, but it will be done.

    Now, as for myself and my own opinion, I'm skeptical but accepting of this change. Women can, and will, do the job. There are people, male AND/OR female, who will wash-out, can't hack it. Good ridence. I have NO room for you onboard my boat. I trust you with the boat while I, and others, have been relieved of the watch. While I have the watch, trust in me to 'take care of business', keeping my AOR on watch ready to fight, to keep the safety ot the ship, the mission on course, and water outta the 'people-tank'. If I cannot trust in you, male or female, to do the same, goodbye. Women WILL do this.... they'll 'make the cut' AND be washed out, just like MANY male submariners before them. THAT tradition WILL remaine a constant. No, I won't be able, or allowed, to go to the showers wearing nothing but a grin and a towel over my sholder anymore......OK, I can become even more of a professional in that respect, my brothers (and sisters to come) will do the same. If they can't, goodbye. If the close quarters and sexual tension become too much, male OR female, and 'relations' happen..... goodbye. You EARN the trust of your shipmates, regardless of gender. You lose that , then goodbye and good ridence.

    Now, my reservations with women intergrating in my community are this....... Will we, as submariners, be forced to abandon those triditions that are the cornerstones of our fighting force, OR will the women be allowed to become a part of our triditions? The latter is what has to happen. Regardless, we ARE the dominate force of the seas, professionals (and even a little unprofessional at times too) who take care of business. Women will become a part of this. My shipmates have accepted this and we're anticipating our new NUB females arrival. Most of us submariners are ready for the change, wether it's liked or not.

    Way back when, one of the reasons I volunteered for the silent service was becauce it WAS one of the last, great 'mens-clubs', a small, quiet community of sea-going butt-kickers. I have matured some since then, grown-up a little, but my soul is still intact. After 20 years, I don't care about male or female crap, drama, whinning, any of it. You'll do the job, complete the mission, or you'll be removed........ goodbye.

    Also, I've read every post thus far. The berateing of women, be it combat or otherwise, has no place. Women, for the most part have EARNED their place. Those for or aginst women in my sub service (yes, I said 'my' service...... I take and accept part-ownership of 'my' community.......they are MY Shipmates) will be pushed aside while my Shipmates (male AND female alike) continue on takeing care of business.

    Here's one, small aspect of our lives to ponder; http://www.goatlocker.org/boats/integrity.htmIntegrity: The Heart of Navy Core Values for the Submariner By "A Submariner"

    The following essay was written by a young enlisted submariner as a disciplinary assignment after a Captain's Mast for taking a shortcut in a maintenance procedure. Both the author and his Commanding Officer agreed to its publication in Undersea Warfare magazine Volume 3, No.1.

    Integrity is the heart and the very essence of each Navy Core Value, but more importantly, it is the foundation on which every aspect of submarine operations is built. Integrity must be the standard instilled within the innermost heart of every man who takes a submarine to the uttermost depths of the sea.

    It is integrity that bonds the crew of a submarine so tightly together that when faced with any circumstance, each individual can trust his shipmate to meet the needs of the moment. Integrity comes from within each man's heart and is revealed through his respect for the standards of conduct. As a submariner, it is my duty and responsibility to maintain the highest degree of integrity while serving my country with honor, courage, and commitment in the United States Navy.

    When I think of the word "integrity" as a submariner, I think naturally of the phrase watertight integrity. When we shut the hatches, we value the assurance that no water is going to enter into the people tank, because those hatches have been inspected, both during PMS, and just before shutting them. As a member of the Auxiliary Division, I have been taught the importance of taking care of our hatches and ensuring the quality of their condition whenever we inspect and conduct maintenance on them. Every one of my shipmates' lives depends on my personal integrity in ensuring that our hatches are squared away. And even when they are rigged for dive, they are second-checked to guarantee their watertightness. I say all of this to illustrate the importance of integrity on a submarine. Every submariner is entrusted with the responsibility to operate this vessel of war according to the procedures established for each ship's system. This ensures the safety of our operation and our ability to complete each mission successfully. No matter how big or small the task I am entrusted with, one mistake could threaten the lives of every one of my shipmates.

    The procedures that we use today have been written through trial and error in the blood of submariners who have served before me. Following these procedures is not just a recommendation; it is our duty to use them. There is not always someone looking look over my shoulder to make sure that I use required procedures to operate a system or conduct maintenance, nor should there need to be. It is only my personal integrity that guarantees I will accomplish an assigned task properly. There is no room for compromise in the integrity of our word and deed. We are faced with important decisions every day of our lives. It is vital that we evaluate every detail of every situation before we make a decision. I have learned that rushing myself in that process usually results in poor judgment. When I rush to accomplish a job, I lose sight of both what is important and the possible consequences of my actions. The focus becomes only getting the job done by any means possible. Looking back at the mistake I made in attempting to accomplish PMS without a procedure, I see that the time I saved was not worth the compromise of my integrity. Trying to rush my work actually cost my shipmates and I more time and effort than if I had done it properly the first time, not to mention the consequences of my actions if something had gone wrong.
    As a submarine sailor I must adhere to the Core Values of the Navy to maintain the military standards of responsibility, order, and discipline. I must have the Honor to deal rightly with all that is entrusted to me - to be loyal, obedient, and respectful to all those appointed over me and to accept my duty of service. I need to have the Courage to stand up for what is right, even when faced with adversity. Courage accompanied with honesty will guide me to the right decisions. I need to be committed to my responsibility and duties as I obey the orders given to me. Commitment requires self-discipline and a devotion to maintain the highest standards of integrity in my profession. An outstanding submarine crew is one that operates consciously as a team to protect the freedom of their country, while observing Core Values within their hearts. In closing, I would like to say that writing this essay has given me the opportunity to meditate on what it means to be a submariner. Integrity is the key essential of the submarine service. I believe we must focus on being consistent in word and deed to maintain our integrity with responsibility, order, and discipline. I have worked hard to build a reputation for being a trustworthy auxiliaryman, but it only takes one mistake to destroy the respect for my integrity that I worked so hard to gain. It is my duty to set the standard for integrity as a member of the Auxiliary Division, and as a submariner on board my ship. I do realize that I am not perfect and will make mistakes, but it is from those mistakes and the mistakes of others that we can learn and grow in our experiences throughout life. I thank God, the author of integrity, for the wisdom to discern its value and for showing the need to apply it to every area of my life.


    Male or female, the Integrity of Shipmates will remain.

    Now, off topic...... I'm about to be out of a job. Who's hiring?
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  10. #39
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    I've flown with many, many female aircrew members. Some good, some not so good, just like the men.
    Spending a limited amount of time flying with female crew members is not even in the same league as living with them in close quarters for months at at time.

    Not even close.

    Consider that submarines don't even have private beds for the crews. Sure, just by habit you'll generally pick the same one but it wasn't unusual for someone else to sleep in it when you were on watch.

    For the interested people that think its a great idea to put women on a sub, lets see how that submarine smells after its been underwater for three months. Even the wives of the men that are submariners have been known to throw the clothes away after they came home from a patrol because they stunk so much that they would stink up the whole house. I'm pretty sure that the addition of women thrown in wont make it any better.

    Subs have an odor all their own and unless you have been on one you can not "appreciate" it.

    The addition of women on combat craft, or even in some support functions is not as great as it seems. The Military has a habit of keeping certain events quiet like, just to protect themselves. Having a brother that is a Major in the Air Force, a BIL that is a Sergeant Major, a nephew on the U.S.S. Reagan, a niece in the National Guard, I do hear of some gender based events that one will never hear anywhere else. Its a problem, its always been a problem and its always going to be a problem and anyone that thinks that young kids full of hormones stacked together for long periods of time isn't a recipe for hard times is only kidding themselves.

    While I personally have no problem with women in most military functions, there are no other military functions that are even remotely the same as the submarine force. There is a whole culture there that you will never see or hear about unless you have been part of it.

    I am not questioning their integrity, ability, their love of country or their willingness to participate. I'm just saying that injecting them into something that they will have no idea about until they get there is unneeded, unnecessary and unwise.

    And ask yourself this question...

    WHY?

    Subs have opertated just fine since the creation of them without woman. We have the best, most capable submarine force on the planet...second to none.

    WHY do we need to add another variable to the equation of something that has been so efficient for so long?

    There is an old saying amongst skilled craftsman...

    If it works, dont fix it.
    bmcgilvray and Bark'n like this.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  11. #40
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    Doodle,

    Your post #29 was a well written expression of your feelings on the matter. I understand your resistance to change. And your fear for the nature of the close knit group that are submariners.

    There have been situations in my work life which might parallel. For years (over a decade), I worked with a woman as my direct co-worker (only 2 operators in this building per shift). Our process dealt with highly hazardous chemicals nearly every day. Improper handling or an emergent situation could have, at the least, called for evacuation of some 50,000 residents and workers from the city. At the worse... blast crater of 1/2 mile, takes out one hospital for sure and probably breaks windows in the other, and kills ~35,000.

    I have not worked with men in the same department whom I would trust more with my life. Both of us were the type that would run towards a fire. And I could count on her to carry her share of the load and more any time we had an emergency. We had a few very serious issues during my tenure in that building. In some of those cases, we can honestly say we saved the lives (or at least the livelihood) of the 135 people on site (and our own). One time we did so with monkey sh__ (putty) and duct tape. Another time in the pitch dark when lights and a 10,000 watt generator failed.

    And in that 10 years of working together, in a closed, locked, and secure building with every opportunity possible; there was no hanky, no panky, no spanky.

    My point is this... my guess is that the women who signed up for this duty, are the type that run towards "fires" and are probably fully aware of what they are headed into. My guess is that if they get on good boats, with good men, and prove themselves, they will be an accepted, respected part of the team. There will ALWAYS be those with whom they do not get along. But those will eventually cull themselves or retire out.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  12. #41
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    Good post gold shellback...

    Now, off topic...... I'm about to be out of a job. Who's hiring?
    Go nuclear. Power. Utility plants.Nuclear Power Plants.

    They need experienced people. A large part of them are ex Navy. It pays well. Check it out.
    Its a small industry. You'll probably recognize some of your shipmates there.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  13. #42
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    Doodle, it doesn't matter if you like it or not. It's happened and nothing is going to change it. Some of here remember the screaming about how the Navy was doomed when they put women on board ships (other than hospital ships). How the Army was doomed when women were allowed into combat zones. How the Air Force was doomed when women were allowed in the cockpit., and before the cockpit how it was doomed when they were put into aircraft maintenance. Guess what.....life went on, the different branches continued to do their job and for the most part nothing changed.

    I'm old enough to remember police carrying nothing but revolvers. I can remember family members who were LEO talking about quitting the force, before they'd carry one of those "damn" automatic pistols. They made the transition, granted there were heel marks on the floor where some of them were dragged, but they made it.

    Change is the only thing in the world that is constant. Get use to it, it's coming and you can't stop it.
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  14. #43
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    "Change is the only thing in the world that is constant. Get use to it, it's coming and you can't stop it"

    Of all the "change" that has happened in the world and our country in since the sub forces started their traditions, the notion of women on subs is one of the least worrisome to me.

    I've enjoyed reading this lively discussion! Maybe the solution is to assign sub crews by sex, the all women subs and the all men subs.

  15. #44
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    I've enjoyed reading this lively discussion! Maybe the solution is to assign sub crews by sex, the all women subs and the all men subs.
    Thats not a bad idea. That would make more sense.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  16. #45
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cammo View Post
    Maybe the solution is to assign sub crews by sex, the all women subs and the all men subs.
    NO. One boat, one crew. Male AND female, we will be Shipmates..... together. To segerate based on gender will create a rift that will destroy the Intergirty of our fighting sailors, soliders, airmen (AND airwomen), and marines.

    I'll refer back to my post #38.......
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

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