Women on submarines as soon as next week...sorry not a fan - Page 5

Women on submarines as soon as next week...sorry not a fan

This is a discussion on Women on submarines as soon as next week...sorry not a fan within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by limatunes I understand your thoughts though I think they may be a bit short sighted. Like the previous poster said, our military ...

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  1. #61
    Ex Member Array Doodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I understand your thoughts though I think they may be a bit short sighted.

    Like the previous poster said, our military keeps adapting and despite all of the nay-saying we still have the greatest fighting force in the world.

    While I was joining the Marine Corps in 2009 I found it very interesting to note that ALL of the young men joining with me were IMPRESSED by us gals joining with them. I was expecting to see some "You gals won't be able to hack it" attitudes but I didn't see that once. They equally mocked anyone (male or female) who wasn't cutting it or complaining and often times they would hold up a girl as an example of determination vs one of the guys. If a guy complained they jumped on him as harshly as they did any gal. There was definitely an air of equality between all of us poolees (male or female). Not to mention that they were happy to include us in some of the PT activities because of our uniqueness... "she's the lightest, we can hoist her more easily here.." "she's can fit in that tunnel and give us a better advantage here..." etc.

    There doesn't seem to be the male vs female stigma in the upcoming generations as there has been in the past and I think the submariners of the future will look at their female counterparts as fellow submarines instead of "us" vs "them." Many of them won't even understand a time when women weren't allowed to serve on subs with them. It will be all they know.
    Valid...Not what I knew but time will tell I guess. No-one likes change but a wet baby...anyway posted on your FB wall permision granted to friend me to you and JD. Got lots of great pics from the last 4 weeks in Norway. I've enjoyed the heck out of this little debate.


  2. #62
    Senior Member Array zeppelin03's Avatar
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    haven't had a chance to read all these posts yet.

    my girlfriend and I were talking about this the other day. neither of us really cared for the idea. we are both early 20s and were just thinking about what we are like at this age. nothing but walking hormones. neither of us could figure out how people wouldn't be distracted all day.

    she happens to be rather opinionated. aside from this sub issue she says women shouldn't be in the marines or in the plumbing department of home depots.

    test it and see his it goes. then we can judge.

  3. #63
    Ex Member Array CUMMINS's Avatar
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    My biggest problem with all women in the military is what happens when these horny soldier boys need some help.... fornication isn't what our soldiers need to be thinking about..

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I understand your thoughts though I think they may be a bit short sighted.

    Like the previous poster said, our military keeps adapting and despite all of the nay-saying we still have the greatest fighting force in the world.

    While I was joining the Marine Corps in 2009 I found it very interesting to note that ALL of the young men joining with me were IMPRESSED by us gals joining with them. I was expecting to see some "You gals won't be able to hack it" attitudes but I didn't see that once. They equally mocked anyone (male or female) who wasn't cutting it or complaining and often times they would hold up a girl as an example of determination vs one of the guys. If a guy complained they jumped on him as harshly as they did any gal. There was definitely an air of equality between all of us poolees (male or female). Not to mention that they were happy to include us in some of the PT activities because of our uniqueness... "she's the lightest, we can hoist her more easily here.." "she's can fit in that tunnel and give us a better advantage here..." etc.

    There doesn't seem to be the male vs female stigma in the upcoming generations as there has been in the past and I think the submariners of the future will look at their female counterparts as fellow submarines instead of "us" vs "them." Many of them won't even understand a time when women weren't allowed to serve on subs with them. It will be all they know.
    Lima I hate to say this but your opinions on life aboard a combat ship are way off. We do not have a push button Navy and water tight doors do need to be closed by hand. Most of the work done in the Navy is still "strongbacked" into place. <- That means that it is still very labor intensive. There are plenty of ropes to haul on and plenty of things to be "lifted way up there".

    The important thing to remember is that we are talking about combat ships. Ships take hits and that's where the rubber meets the road. On the surface it might seem like a ship would be a better place for women than an infantry unit and for the most part that is true. It's true until the ship gets hit and people start getting killed.

    Our Navy is the top dog right now and nobody wants to tangle with us but one day someone will. Some day in the near future we will fight a nasty war at sea with China or India or someone else and I want our Navy to be better than it was yesterday, not just "good enough". The issues we are talking about today WILL matter.

    Our Navy is so good that we don't see pictures of bloody sailors coming home in body bags very often, but they do. People died on both deployments I made and I had a couple very close calls. My first duty station was on board the USS Tripoli LPH 10. Google her and look at the pictures of the damage she sustained during the 1st Gulf War.

    tripoli.jpg

    My point in all of this is to remind you that even though I'm familiar with motherhood (because I have three kids) I can't really tell you about being a mom. You telling a submariner what it's like, or will be like on a sub, is like me telling you what it's like to give birth.
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  5. #65
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    Some links from MODERN life at sea. There is really nothing different about life on a flightdeck since Vietnam.

    USS Forrestal Mishap July 29, 1967 - YouTube

    F A - 18 Crash Landing On AirCraft Carrier - YouTube


    As an aside just for the sake of trivia. The pilot in the aircraft that was struck by a rocket in the first video was John McCain.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  6. #66
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    Push buttons only work as long as there is power. There is always a need for a MANual backup.

    Kinda reminds me of when Gloria Steinem (sp?) told a reporter that fire departments should get "electric axes" to chop down doors so women could be fire fighters. IIRC, she also said it would be ok for a female fire fighter to pull her down a set of stairs by her ankles (banging her head on every step) instead of being lifted up and carried to safety by a male.

    The bigger picture is this - traditionally, the only time women, children, and old men fought in combat is when things were really desperate. We are not there. Military and protective services are NOT a job - they are a profession - and you should not have a "right" to serve just because you want to. Period. Been there, done that, have the scars to prove it.

    In the Army, females who got pregnant were considered "non deployable." That meant more work for the men if we deployed. Not sure what the Navy does, but I would imagine something similar. Curious - what percentage of females aboard ship get pregnant? Any of you Navy vets know?
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  7. #67
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    what percentage of females aboard ship get pregnant? Any of you Navy vets know?
    A crapload.

    36 Women Pregnant Aboard a Navy Ship That Served in Gulf - NYTimes.com
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  8. #68
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    Well, let's hope a berth on a sub won't turn into a birth.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunthorp View Post
    Well, let's hope a berth on a sub won't turn into a birth.
    That's the point I'm trying to make. It will happen. It will come to pass when a submarine on patrol has to come back to port because they have a woman on board that is pregnant.

    When I was in the Navy's dive fairer program I had to have my wisdom teeth out just because there was a chance they could become a problem at some point in the future. I was told that due to the nature of service on board a submarine they had to come out, so out they came.

    The reality of this thing is that it will risk lives to have women on subs. Those who don't understand this just don't get what submarines do.
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    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  10. #70
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    downladder.jpg
    Ironically enough an old navy buddy posted this on FB...thought it fit

  11. #71
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    From the article:

    Naval policy is to transfer women immediately to shore duty if they become pregnant.

    Yep - that would work for a sub that's trying to stay underwater undetected, wouldn't it?

    36 pregnant out of 360 females, or a full 10% - on just one deployment. Whether they got pregnant before the ship sailed (and discovered it while underway), or during shore leave, or "against the rules" on the ship, does not really matter. Those females either need to be replaced, or the men need to do more work to make up for fewer crew members aboard. Either way, it would be an additional risk in combat.

    *sigh*
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  12. #72
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    I hesitate to start typing again on this subject but just briefly:

    If the Navy really wants to deploy women on subs then it needs to lose the 50's attitudes, get real, and quit pandering to a "softer sex" type job and treatment description. Some of the things described here are just plain riduculous (like the urinal that was removed prior to the woman's arrival).

    On merchant ships, there was no thing such as women's bathrooms. I actually hotbunked with men on some small research boats. On others there was one guy and three girls in a cabin. It was the crappiest cabin on the boat, right next to the engine room so I had to sleep with mickey mouse ears on. Nice. It all worked and no I did not become pregnant. The ahem...magazine....lockers were the size of coffins, so the guys all seemed pretty relaxed - this notion of them running around like hungry wolves is crazy. We (I) pulled my (our) own weight and added a level of attention to detail that was not as easy for the men.

    OK, the guys were on deck firefighting crew (except one had a girl that had more sea time than any other guy aboard) but I had my own job in comms for emergencies. It takes a village.

    I'll stop now.

  13. #73
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    A few disjointed thoughts:

    1. My wife, who absolutely abhors women who degrade themselves in pornography (which is by their own choice), is also the first to say that some jobs are for men because women can't compare.

    2. We have lots of women in EMS. They do somethings better than men, particularly when it comes to assaulted women. They also are much more likely to call for more help lifting patients, and insist that they must get the "light/foot end" or the stretcher because it requires less lifting, even though they must all past a lift test to get the job.

    3. I think that comment about women not bringing much to the table would make more sense and be less offensive if were followed by the qualifier "...than a man does." Women can be equal to a man on a job. Neither can be considered superior. We are not running short of men the last time I checked.

    4. Women and men are different. I doubt I'll see the day when certain sexual organs and functions spontaneously become interchangeable. Modern society can try try try to be gender neutral but it is a biological impossibility akin to the emperor's new clothes.

    5. In the end, are women (womanhood) harmed (as defined by law) if they are denied certain jobs that are discriminate against them for articulable and sensible reasons?

    6. Why can't our society accept that men and women have certain defined roles and make a commitment to adhere to them in principle, if not 100% in practice? There are plenty of studies that suggest that many problems our society has now are a result of Mommy working, etc. Were we really worse off 50-100 years ago when the woman raised the children, as it has worked for thousands of years, and the man went to work, and we had traditional families? When most women didn't HAVE to work? When our children weren't given over to someone else to raise?

    If a woman can do a job, fine. But why do so many demand it? Why do so many women have to be "equal" and turn their backs on traditional motherhood and family? Men and women are supposed to complement each other. There's a lot more to equality than turning a wrench.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by cammo View Post
    I hesitate to start typing again on this subject but just briefly:

    If the Navy really wants to deploy women on subs then it needs to lose the 50's attitudes, get real, and quit pandering to a "softer sex" type job and treatment description. Some of the things described here are just plain riduculous (like the urinal that was removed prior to the woman's arrival).

    On merchant ships, there was no thing such as women's bathrooms. I actually hotbunked with men on some small research boats. On others there was one guy and three girls in a cabin. It was the crappiest cabin on the boat, right next to the engine room so I had to sleep with mickey mouse ears on. Nice. It all worked and no I did not become pregnant. The ahem...magazine....lockers were the size of coffins, so the guys all seemed pretty relaxed - this notion of them running around like hungry wolves is crazy. We (I) pulled my (our) own weight and added a level of attention to detail that was not as easy for the men.

    OK, the guys were on deck firefighting crew (except one had a girl that had more sea time than any other guy aboard) but I had my own job in comms for emergencies. It takes a village.

    I'll stop now.
    Cammo girl you make some good points and I think there is a way that women on combat ships could work. They should only be there if they really are equal to the men around them when doing the heavy work. Same requirements, same PT tests, same labor. I think that less than 10% of the women wanting to go to sea are truly qualified to work there by the same standards the men must pass (maybe even less).

    Sadly the Navy can't lose the 50's attitude or they will get sued left and right. A mixed berthing is a lawsuit waiting to happen and there would be thousands of women lining up for the "he harassed me" lottery ticket. It is what it is.

    For the record I knew plenty of great women in the service while I was on shore duty. The best boss, actually the best two bosses I ever had were women.

    I had to sleep with mickey mouse ears on
    Ha ha! BTDT. : ) You were on some sort of merchant ship? For how long? How long would you be out?
    bmcgilvray likes this.
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  15. #75
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    "Were we really worse off 50-100 years ago..."


    No, absolutely not! Not socially. Not morally. Not even economically, for household economies are just as stressed as they ever were though both spouses are now employed. The women are no longer working for "extras" either. That notion has gone the way of the bi-metallic standard.

    Now, rearing children is frowned on as a source of fulfillment for a woman. Lest they think they're off the hook, men shirk their responsibilities to their own children too. And, this is in families who "wanted kids!" It doesn't even take into consideration a society completely awash in unwanted, ill-disciplined, and neglected children whose irresponsible parents simply don't care. Witness performance and behavior of any school classroom to see the tragedy of this truth.

    Then we wonder that children behave as if they were raised by wolves.

    "There's a lot more to equality than" ...(fill in the blank with one's favorite "fulfillment"). That's because life's more important than mere self-fulfillment as defined by the likes of Gloria Steinem.
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