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Women on submarines as soon as next week...sorry not a fan

This is a discussion on Women on submarines as soon as next week...sorry not a fan within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Doodle I also want to reiterate that every enlisted person and every officer is expected to know how and be able to ...

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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doodle View Post
    I also want to reiterate that every enlisted person and every officer is expected to know how and be able to do ALL of this. A fire on a submarine will kill the entire crew faster than just about anything (besides a huge hole opening in the hull but this is far less likely.) If your the closest person to the fire...you just became a firefighter, no matter what your position on the ship is.
    Doodle, your discussion points about firefighting are the most compelling to me so far (i.e. women would need to have the strength to do all of this).

    This just makes me wonder why the Navy, in all of it's "best underwater force in the world" status, just only recently banned smoking? I did a quick google and saw that about 40% of the submariners smoked. It looks like other countries still allow smoking on subs. Statistically, couldn't the risk of fire due to a buddy smoking be equivalent to any of the risks of having females aboard? Wouldn't the health risks of decreased lung function for smokers or nonsmokers be limiting the physical performance under emergencies?

    What exactly is the status of smoking on subs? I mean no disrespect to the Navy but this just seems like a problem, more so than having a few qualified, serious, professional women on board.

    PS the "some guy from Pizza Hut" was a classic, thanks for that whoever said it.


  2. #92
    Ex Member Array Doodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cammo View Post
    Doodle, your discussion points about firefighting are the most compelling to me so far (i.e. women would need to have the strength to do all of this).

    This just makes me wonder why the Navy, in all of it's "best underwater force in the world" status, just only recently banned smoking? I did a quick google and saw that about 40% of the submariners smoked. It looks like other countries still allow smoking on subs. Statistically, couldn't the risk of fire due to a buddy smoking be equivalent to any of the risks of having females aboard? Wouldn't the health risks of decreased lung function for smokers or nonsmokers be limiting the physical performance under emergencies?

    What exactly is the status of smoking on subs? I mean no disrespect to the Navy but this just seems like a problem, more so than having a few qualified, serious, professional women on board.

    PS the "some guy from Pizza Hut" was a classic, thanks for that whoever said it.
    Don't know about the new CNO smoke free directive...I was a smoker and that would have made me pretty grumpy. When I was in only 3 people could smoke at a time in 1 spot in the machinery room, and the would not allow smoking if there where dangerous operations going on.

  3. #93
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    I have been following this thread since yesterday morning.
    As I have.....

    The pregnancy issue, and another issue (that suprisingly hasn't come up yet in this discourse) that I've pondered since the 90's when 'women on subs' first came up in serious debate is this......... medical treatment.

    As for my being for or aginst women on sub's, I'll again refer to my first post on this, #38.

    Pregnancy first....... This is a BIG DEAL. Wether it was a wife who unexpectedly 'poped positive' due to an 'Ooops', a rape (which I fear the suspect had better be in jail by the time her shipmates go looking for him.....we ARE submariners), or an unprofessional underway 'relationship' with an equally guilty male shipmate....... regardless, she has to be removed soonest. Submarines are NOT a 'happy place' for a devoloping fetus/child. Now, with her having to go, she will NOT be replaced....at least not right away. The rest of us will have to pick the slack. Not unheard of......I've had to do that with plenty of the guys who've had to be removed.....injury, illness, went coo-coo (that's happened)....whatever. The pregnancy asspect of it just adds another element to be delt with......However, with pregnancy, she is stilled considered a part of the boat and a crewmember..... she WON'T be replaced. She'd be returned onboard after about a year. That's how it works right now. Bad deal indeed. That policy may have to be 'tweaked' if not out-right changed.

    Now for medical.......... Women bring a whole 'new' area of medicne onboard that, even now as their checking onboard, we are VERY ill-prepared to meet. Subs only have ONE corpsman onboard.....not a doctor..... just a really good combat medic/nurse. When said male corpsman (for now anyway) HAS to check out a females 'no-no's'.......better hope we have at least two women availiable to 'observe' what's going on. There are NO real medical facilities on a sub...... 'sick-bay' is squeezed into 'where-ever' Women also bring a 'new' set of 'things' that have to be addressede and prepared for.....not much more, but some more, and diffrent, considerations. I'm a husband, father of two daughters, and now a grand-paw of one wonderful grand-daughter...... I have a clue about women's medical needs.... but ONLY a CLUE.

    As the submarine force 'grows into' the new role women WILL play, these issues will addressed as best they can, we'll learn from it, and continue moving forward. We're a pretty fluid and adaptable bunch.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Just out of curiosity how often and long do you deploy in the CG?
    Atctimmy and Doodle, I'll concede it's not the same. But I guarantee you, back before the first women were let onto Coast Guard cutters, all of the same concerns were raised as some have mentioned here concerning women on submarines. Decades later, the CG continues to function on almost no money as one of the world's elite multi-mission seagoing services. I think we can all rest assured that the consummate professionals in the U.S. Navy will similarly rise to the occasion, adapt to the new circumstances, and continue to get their missions done to the same high standard of excellence as always. I think it's safe to assume that it would take a lot more than the presence of some women crewmembers to bring a submarine to a halt.

    Edit: never answered the question. My 378-footer generally stuck to 2-3 months in home port, 2 months away from home port. The longest without any liberty/port call that I experienced was probably 3 straight weeks at sea, but those boats could do longer if necessary. My 110-footer, which could be ready to get underway within six hours, would sometimes do emergency response, in and out on the same night. From our home port in Miami, we would do 2-7 day patrols away, maybe taking a break in Key West or something like that. Then, every few months, we would transfer our AOR to Puerto Rico and be away from Miami for about a month, doing week-long patrols between port breaks (sometimes stopping for fuel or supplies, or to transfer custody of detainees/immigrants/seized vessels, etc.). Once, though, we stayed underway for a looong time--I think maybe 10 days? Let's just say our stores were getting mighty low.

  5. #95
    Ex Member Array Doodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldshellback View Post
    As I have.....

    The pregnancy issue, and another issue (that suprisingly hasn't come up yet in this discourse) that I've pondered since the 90's when 'women on subs' first came up in serious debate is this......... medical treatment.

    As for my being for or aginst women on sub's, I'll again refer to my first post on this, #38.

    Pregnancy first....... This is a BIG DEAL. Wether it was a wife who unexpectedly 'poped positive' due to an 'Ooops', a rape (which I fear the suspect had better be in jail by the time her shipmates go looking for him.....we ARE submariners), or an unprofessional underway 'relationship' with an equally guilty male shipmate....... regardless, she has to be removed soonest. Submarines are NOT a 'happy place' for a devoloping fetus/child. Now, with her having to go, she will NOT be replaced....at least not right away. The rest of us will have to pick the slack. Not unheard of......I've had to do that with plenty of the guys who've had to be removed.....injury, illness, went coo-coo (that's happened)....whatever. The pregnancy asspect of it just adds another element to be delt with......However, with pregnancy, she is stilled considered a part of the boat and a crewmember..... she WON'T be replaced. She'd be returned onboard after about a year. That's how it works right now. Bad deal indeed. That policy may have to be 'tweaked' if not out-right changed.

    Now for medical.......... Women bring a whole 'new' area of medicne onboard that, even now as their checking onboard, we are VERY ill-prepared to meet. Subs only have ONE corpsman onboard.....not a doctor..... just a really good combat medic/nurse. When said male corpsman (for now anyway) HAS to check out a females 'no-no's'.......better hope we have at least two women availiable to 'observe' what's going on. There are NO real medical facilities on a sub...... 'sick-bay' is squeezed into 'where-ever' Women also bring a 'new' set of 'things' that have to be addressede and prepared for.....not much more, but some more, and diffrent, considerations. I'm a husband, father of two daughters, and now a grand-paw of one wonderful grand-daughter...... I have a clue about women's medical needs.... but ONLY a CLUE.

    As the submarine force 'grows into' the new role women WILL play, these issues will addressed as best they can, we'll learn from it, and continue moving forward. We're a pretty fluid and adaptable bunch.
    Adaptable indeed...the motto of the submariner: Semper Gumby...always flexible...badum dum :)
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  6. #96
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    I'll also say this WRT the strength disparity of men/women..... as a sub-sailor who honestly dosn't want change but knows it's comming and is ready for it.... No sailor will stand watch 'alone'. Male or female, as long as our surfacing evolutions EQUAL our diving evolutions AND he/she can sound an alarm when the sanitairy tanks empty into the ventalation..... helps comming!

    Wanna see something absolutly funny and completly frightening.......? Call away a REAL fire underwater!

    I'll just let ya'll imagination go with that 'vision' for a bit......... just know that putting that fire OUT is priority ONE....even BEFORE getting DRESSED. I've been the first responder for more than a couple of REAL fires........ wearing nothing but skivvies, boots, and a bad attitude.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay

  7. #97
    Ex Member Array Doodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldshellback View Post
    I'll also say this WRT the strength disparity of men/women..... as a sub-sailor who honestly dosn't want change but knows it's comming and is ready for it.... No sailor will stand watch 'alone'. Male or female, as long as our surfacing evolutions EQUAL our diving evolutions AND he/she can sound an alarm when the sanitairy tanks empty into the ventalation..... helps comming!

    Wanna see something absolutly funny and completly frightening.......? Call away a REAL fire underwater!

    I'll just let ya'll imagination go with that 'vision' for a bit......... just know that putting that fire OUT is priority ONE....even BEFORE getting DRESSED. I've been the first responder for more than a couple of REAL fires........ wearing nothing but skivvies, boots, and a bad attitude.
    Reminds me of the story of my EDMC being woke from sleep and responding to a fire in the Engine Room manning hose nine...(there are 8 firehoses on a 688 class submarine.)

  8. #98
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doodle View Post
    Friggin coners...tit for tat...ha!
    Steam-pig.......behave or NO family-grams/email for YOU!
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay

  9. #99
    Ex Member Array Doodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldshellback View Post
    Steam-pig.......behave or NO family-grams/email for YOU!
    radiomen, geeze

  10. #100
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    I've never stepped foot on a active Navy vessel, so maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I could not imagine adding women to the mix of a sub is a good idea. A big ship like a carrier... OK, but a sub? Wow. Maybe they could have an all woman crew on a few cruises. That would be interesting.
    Last edited by SIXTO; November 6th, 2011 at 02:08 PM.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  11. #101
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    Here's something else .....a semi-serious thought....... fresh water is a comodity. Subs can only make so much. We dudes stink bad enough, but when the fresh-water still decides to give up the ghost.......... no showers, no laundry. The reactor gets first drink, leftover drops are spared for the cooks. That's IT.

    Someone asked or posted eariler about 'our special kinda stank' that follows us home after patrol/deployment. SWMBO'd does NOT allow me in the house until I dump all my stuff in the garage and orders me STRIGHT to the shower. COMWIFLANT's (Commander, Wife Atlantic) orders are followed.
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    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay

  12. #102
    Ex Member Array Doodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldshellback View Post
    Steam-pig.......behave or NO family-grams/email for YOU!
    Don't worry shellback I don't hold coner against you...as I'm typing this I'm in my coworkers hotel room watching the Texans. He was an FT on the Toledo.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldshellback View Post
    Here's something else .....a semi-serious thought....... fresh water is a comodity. Subs can only make so much. We dudes stink bad enough, but when the fresh-water still decides to give up the ghost.......... no showers, no laundry. The reactor gets first drink, leftover drops are spared for the cooks. That's IT.

    Someone asked or posted eariler about 'our special kinda stank' that follows us home after patrol/deployment. SWMBO'd does NOT allow me in the house until I dump all my stuff in the garage and orders me STRIGHT to the shower. COMWIFLANT's (Commander, Wife Atlantic) orders are followed.


    When I was a teen I read quite a few books about submarine warfare and the tales of American subs in World War II. With all this talk about the funk of submarine duty y'all are sorta taking the bloom off my youthful imaginations of submarine duty.
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  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    When I was a teen I read quite a few books about submarine warfare and the tales of American subs in World War II. With all this talk about the funk of submarine duty y'all are sorta taking the bloom off my youthful imaginations of submarine duty.
    It aint hunt for red october...more like down periscope!
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  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Who says the father has to even be in the Navy?
    I didn't imagine that anyone would have interpreted my statement as meaning anything other than, "If the father is on the boat, he should be treated the same." It wouldn't be possible to be sure every time, but on long deployments, a little math can tell you if it happened on the boat. As for endangering the ship, what does a sub do if a crew member hurts themselves enough that they can't do their job? I'd say the same treatment for a pregnant woman should suffice, with disciplinary action when the deployment ends.

    My understanding is that sub crews are fairly elite. The women who go for that duty are likely to be serious about career advancement, so I don't think this is going to be a rampant issue, nor do I think it will be catastrophic should it occur; a crewman unable to do their job due to a broken leg has pretty much the same impact.

    Please don't think that I am taking this concern lightly. In fact, I asked my wife, who is about as strong a woman as you'll know, what she thinks should be the policy. The following is a paraphrase of her proposal:

    Given 3-6 month deployments, require every female submariner to take a pregnancy test immediately prior to deployment and if they are pregnant, they are not allowed to go out. If they are not pregnant, they would be required to take a depo-provera shot. This is birth control effective for three months, so short tours would be covered. For six month tours, they could either take a second shot at the three month mark, or choose not to, as a pregnancy of less than three months gestation would be unlikely to affect their ability to perform. Any pregnancy that prevents them from doing their duty once deployed would be a court martial offense. If it can be determined that a sailor on board is the other half, he would also be subject to court martial.

    Me again. Seems like it would work. Any comments?

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