Women on submarines as soon as next week...sorry not a fan

This is a discussion on Women on submarines as soon as next week...sorry not a fan within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Would you support your lil' girl signing up for the submarine service? Absoultley not. I'd rather have her jump into a frying pan. Lots of ...

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Thread: Women on submarines as soon as next week...sorry not a fan

  1. #121
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    Would you support your lil' girl signing up for the submarine service?
    Absoultley not.

    I'd rather have her jump into a frying pan.

    Lots of opportunities elsewhere....where she can breath real air.
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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldshellback View Post
    Lemme add another nugget to this thread....... particularly to us daddys with daughters.

    Would you support your lil' girl signing up for the submarine service?
    I don't know about Submarine Service, but when my youngest daughter was thinking of going in the Army I didn't suggest she follow my footsteps into EOD, just because I didn't think she had the "personality to make a good EOD Operator.

    Having said that, let me say that I think in most cases the female question should be answered on an individual basis. I was around when females first started coming into the EOD Field, and heard many of the arguments discussed in this thread. I also had the mixed "pleasure" of having two of the first females in my unit overseas. Both made it through one of the (mentally) toughest joint service schools around, which by-the-way is run by the Navy.

    Of the two, I'd have traded about half my guys for one of them, she was that good, now could she lift a 5-inch-57 round? no, but neither could most of the men. The other wasn't worth the powder to blow her away, but I also saw men like that during my years in the military.
    Rick

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  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglebeak View Post
    Perhaps the all-female boat would be even more effective (or at least more highly respected) when the majority of the crew's biological clocks were in alignment. You'd have a boat armed with nuke weapons and piloted by a highly trained, highly proficient, expert crew that was in a really really really bad mood
    Yeah but submariners have to maintain a quiet noise posture! I am not so sure that's poss-i-bl...I'm just kidding lima and cammo!!!!
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  5. #124
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    Having said that, let me say that I think in most cases the female question should be answered on an individual basis. I was around when females first started coming into the EOD Field, and heard many of the arguments discussed in this thread. I also had the mixed "pleasure" of having two of the first females in my unit overseas. Both made it through one of the (mentally) toughest joint service schools around, which by-the-way is run by the Navy.

    Of the two, I'd have traded about half my guys for one of them, she was that good, now could she lift a 5-inch-57 round? no, but neither could most of the men. The other wasn't worth the powder to blow her away, but I also saw men like that during my years in the military.

    My experience exactly. i watched NCOs and officers crying in their beer about how females were going to ruin the US Army EOD program. The vast majority of the whining was done came by marginal men. Never met a female EOD person who was a doper. Can't say the same for males.

  6. #125
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    As a former tadpole I'm not too concerned about women in the SEALs. The SEALs take the top 10% of hard, strong, tough young men and they cut/drop about 90% of them. If a woman makes it to a SEAL team she is the baddest chick on the planet and deserves to be there. I think there realistically is a zero % chance of that happening.


    ETA: The SEALs have a PT test that you must pass as a prerequisite to going to Basic Underwater Demolition School (AKA SEAL training). The test just to be on the list to try and be a SEAL goes like this:

    1. 500 yard swim using breast and /or side stroke < 12:30

    2. Perform 42+ pushups in 2 minutes *

    3. Perform 50+ sit-ups in 2 minutes*

    4. Perform 8+ pull-ups, no time limit*

    5. Run 1.5 miles < 11:30 (boots and long pants)

    * Maximum effort event.

    So the deal for the test is like this: You do it all at once. It doesn't look too tough until you are halfway into it. You hit the pool for your timed swim and when your group of 6 guys is done you have something like 5 minutes to change from your trunks into your boots, T shirt and BDU pants (in my day it was bell bottoms ). Then you go out and do the push ups and sit ups.

    The hard part here is that these are maximum effort events. Can't do 42 push ups after swimming 500 yds then you fail. If you stop doing push ups before 2 minutes are up then you fail even if you've done 70. Try to pace yourself so you don't blow up and an instructor sees you dogging it then you fail. This is a maximum effort event. The goal is to go as hard as you can for two minutes, the actual number of pushups is not important as long as it's more than 42 and you don't stop before the bell. Then you flip over and do the sit up test the same way. No real rest period between events.

    The next part (and for most folks the hardest part) was the 8 + max effort pull ups. Remember, no rest. These are right after the 500 yd swim and the max effort push ups and your upper body is in the tank. Most people fail here. They make you go all the way down and lock out your arms and then go all the way up, hang your chin over the bar and wait for the instructor to say good or nod yes and then you go back down for the next one. Your legs are crossed and straight down at all times and if you kick or "kip" at all to try and get up then that pull up doesn't count. I failed this part the first time I tried out.

    Lastly you get the 1.5 mile run which isn't easy but most people who haven't already failed and have made it to this point have no problems with the run.

    This test is simply designed to weed out unqualified candidates. If you can't pass the swimming part then you have no business trying out for the SEALs. If you can't pass the rest then you never had a chance anyway.

    Actual SEAL training is about 10,000 times tougher than this test and it's every day for six months +.

    ***I'll now throw in here that I was not a SEAL nor did I ever try to be one (although once in the dive program I was tempted to try) . I went through this stuff on the Navy's Dive Fairer program, not the SEAL program. I was doing the Men of Honor thing, not the SEAL thing but much of our training and all of our PT was done by SEALs. After only a month or so into the program my left shoulder crapped out and I was medically dropped. I went to the fleet as a non rated E1 and went from there.
    Last edited by atctimmy; November 7th, 2011 at 11:30 PM.
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  7. #126
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    I'm seeing a distinct line between female 'go-geters' and 'the rest of 'em'. A woman pioneering her way into a previous all-male enviroment would add a bit of 'competition' to the marginal males ( and females) amoungst them, wouldn't it?

    A bad thing?
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  8. #127
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    In 20 years of sub I've seen 'em come and go.... the good and not-so-good.

    In my sub-school class way back when, 24 of us started out.......16 made it. 2 were sent back a class or two (as I recall). The rest went surface. Didn't make it for whatever reason. A few years and a couple-few deployments later, a 'noticable downgrade' in the quality of men began making it to 'our' fleet. Instead of booting 'em to the surface fleet, the 'less-than' group' began being 'shuffled' to other boats......"second-chance" sailors became the SOP. 'We', who earned our spot, did NOT like it one bit.......the 'great dolphin give-away' we called it. Seemed like every division had one.

    We were becoming 'watered-down'.

    "It looks bad to be washing out so many in school or after 'they' get to the boats" we were told. Well after a few more years of this the E-6's through E-9's began 'quietly' pushing those 'lessers' out. I made E6, became a division Leading Petty Officer, and began 'pushing' a few myself...... Much to my suprise, and disdain, some of them hung around....... A few left as well.

    Male or female, You'll be judged by your peers on the submarine. It's your peers you get the 'check-outs' from during you qualifications. It's your peers who pass down what you really need to know, and it's your peers you will stand before and 'present' you knowledge to and who will decide if you've earned the right to wear the dolphins or not. That's right. The people you work and live with onboard make that call. No one else.

    I want the women who are coming to earn it. Anything less and they'll be pushed.....pushed out or pushed to succeed.



    It's the "It won't look good............" stuff that'll kill us, literaly.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

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  9. #128
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    As an aviation guy I remember a certain F14 driver that was the Navy's poster woman for women pilots. Then she crashed into the sea on a night carrier landing and she took her RIO with her. It came out after the fact that she was repeatedly rated as sub par and shouldn't be allowed to continue. However, since she was a woman (and I think the first woman fighter pilot) she kept getting second, third and fourth chances to pass.

    She finally failed for real and killed a second person along with herself. This is the worry I have for our submarine force.
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  10. #129
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    On the other hand:

    "The one thing she didn’t have as she roared into the crystalline sky was live ammunition. Or missiles. Or anything at all to throw at a hostile aircraft.

    Except her own plane. So that was the plan."

    F-16 pilot was ready to give her life on Sept. 11 - The Washington Post

  11. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    As an aviation guy I remember a certain F14 driver that was the Navy's poster woman for women pilots. Then she crashed into the sea on a night carrier landing and she took her RIO with her. It came out after the fact that she was repeatedly rated as sub par and shouldn't be allowed to continue. However, since she was a woman (and I think the first woman fighter pilot) she kept getting second, third and fourth chances to pass.
    On the soapbox:
    Who is to blame for this kind of thing? The half-@#$%& system and individuals that allow it to happen. We need to either do this like we mean it, and do it right, or not at all.

    This is like blaming one of Vick's pitbulls for injuring another dog.

    Off the soapbox.

  12. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doodle View Post
    Yeah but submariners have to maintain a quiet noise posture! I am not so sure that's poss-i-bl...I'm just kidding lima and cammo!!!!
    Man I make a great joke and I don't get any response? DANG!
    atctimmy likes this.

  13. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by cammo View Post
    On the soapbox:
    Who is to blame for this kind of thing? The half-@#$%& system and individuals that allow it to happen. We need to either do this like we mean it, and do it right, or not at all.

    This is like blaming one of Vick's pitbulls for injuring another dog.

    Off the soapbox.
    The blame belongs to the Navy. It's not meant to be an indictment of the pilot. My point wasn't to put her down, it was simply to point out the fact that there is always more factors in play with something like this.

    Goldshellback has said multiple times that unless they cut the mustard woman candidates will be pushed out and dropped. Sometimes the politics involved with the system won't let that happen and people end up getting killed. That was my only point, it's not always cut and dry.

    I've said before that I don't really have a problem with it if the standards are truly the same (and the birth control caveat).
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    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  14. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doodle View Post
    Man I make a great joke and I don't get any response? DANG!
    My wife is reading this. I have to play it cool. : )
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  15. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    The blame belongs to the Navy. It's not meant to be an indictment of the pilot. My point wasn't to put her down, it was simply to point out the fact that there is always more factors in play with something like this.

    Goldshellback has said multiple times that unless they cut the mustard woman candidates will be pushed out and dropped. Sometimes the politics involved with the system won't let that happen and people end up getting killed. That was my only point, it's not always cut and dry.

    I've said before that I don't really have a problem with it if the standards are truly the same (and the birth control caveat).
    Unfortunately this didn't start in the Navy with women on submarines...politics in the military effects everything...It sucks but there will always be people that show up and maybe shouldn't quite be there. Those type of people get fully qualified because they have to but stay in the junior watches because they are untrustworthy in my experience.

  16. #135
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    ATTENTION ON DECK !

    At 0847 our new NUB Logistics Officers came aboard for brief introductions and a 'heads up' that they'll be checking onboard 'soon'.

    They're here.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay

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