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Women on submarines as soon as next week...sorry not a fan

12K views 139 replies 47 participants last post by  Magnum 
#1 ·
The Day - First women to report to subs graduate | News from southeastern Connecticut

Don't get me wrong...this is not about sexism because there is nothing about being a submariner requiring great physical strength (especially since these are officers...ZING!), I digress anyway all you need is intelligence and coolness under pressure. My problem lies in the history and traditions of the submarine force that will not be the same with a mixed gender crew. Trust me there's no time or room for "relations", so I'm not worried about that but...why would women even want to be on subs with guys like me and other dudes I know. They don't call us dirty boat sailors for nothin. It'll never be the same.
 
#2 ·
Will they cross the equator and join in some of the other sub traditions? :gah:
 
#3 ·
There might be nothing requiring great physical strength - as long as all the equipment works. When things get damaged and you have to revert to "manual" mode, I'm betting that physical strength becomes much more necessary.

Sorry - but I get so darn tired hearing about how warfare is now "push button," with less demand on physical strength. Hogwash. I can't tell you how many times I had to carry a female's rucksack in addition to my own, because they just could not make it - and this was on nothing more trying than a 12 mile march, with no one shooting at you.

On a slightly different note - are we really so desperate for military service members, that as a society, we are willing to risk the lives of our wives and the mothers of our children in dangerous professions such as military service, law enforcement, etc? Are there really not enough men to do these tasks? Really?

I'll shut up now, lest I risk getting banned. Grrrrrr....

:mad:
 
#4 ·
It's a shameful commentary on our society today. I'm just old fashioned enough to think that a society that has no more respect for its women than to send them off to war, putting them in harm's way, is a sick society.

Equality just ain't all it's cracked up to be.
 
#31 ·
I'm in this camp. I know and understand all the arguments for and against but I have never been comfortable thinking of women, (wives, daughters, sisters) in combat roles. I never will be. What I find particularly distasteful is hearing about young women shipped off to war zones leaving their small children behind. Good God, should we really be sending mothers of small children into combat zones? Sick society indeed.
 
#5 ·
Ummmmm....... what about those of us who WANT to serve our country?

It says nothing negative about "the state of our country" when women stand up and volunteer to go to war in its defense.

We love our country just as much as you men do. We have the same drive to fight and defend and I find it quite annoying when people try to downplay our commitment to our country with saying like, "What is our county coming to when we have to send wives and mothers to war?" .. ESPECIALLY when there are many of us women who are wives and mothers and willingly enlist knowing full-well what we are asking for.

It's rather insulting.. I must say.

Do we have physical limitations in some areas? Sure. But we also have advantages in some areas and have the same mental capacities as the guys. There's nothing wrong with a woman serving in the military. And there is nothing wrong with a change of tradition.

Please don't disrespect those women who proudly serve.
 
#6 ·
Limatunes;

Please don't take the statement as an insult or be too annoyed. It wasn't intended so. I do respect the women who proudly serve and don't for a moment disparage the American woman's commitment to our nation . It's just that I also respect womanhood and feel that society no longer maintains a proper respect for its women. It's equal opportunity misery for one and all. We American men could spare our women one of the miseries of life by not visiting the horrors of war on them.

For me it goes far beyond a mere change in tradition. Perhaps I'm not politically correct but I feel that gallantry and reverence extended to the fairer sex is not too much to ask of a nation.

Even though we've both passed 50, I can think of no one I'd rather have in an foxhole with me, watching my back than my own sweet wife. She's mentally tough, physically sturdy, fiercely solicitous of my well-being, and very intelligent. She's also a good shot. It's just that I would never willingly place her in such a situation.

Now my 0331 machinegunner, Charley Company, 1/7, USMC son? He'd be more to the point as a foxhole companion.
 
#20 ·
It's just that I also respect womanhood and feel that society no longer maintains a proper respect for its women.
True respect for women takes their desires and needs seriously. Paternalism doesn't do that. I am glad that our military is favoring patriotism over mindless tradition. Bad tradition deserves to die.


Lots of 20 somethings men and women confined in close quarters for months at a time?
Nothing good is going to come from that.
Lots of blacks mixed in with the whites?
Lots of women on aircraft carriers?
Women allowed to fight?
Gays in the same foxholes with straight men?

Over and over this stuff comes up, and over and over, our incredible military is insulted and underestimated. They are professional soldiers, the best in the world. They have always moved forward with society (slowly and grudgingly sometimes) and never lost their professionalism, skill, and effectiveness.

Ask any real Commanding Officer (not some desk jockey political appointee) what they think about it (privately and off the record) and see what they have to say about it...but do it only if you can handle the truth.
See above. The same kvetching and hand-wringing was there for every other group that was arbitrarily discriminated against in the past. I have no doubt that there are those in the military against this move. That doesn't make them right. And fortunately, they will follow orders.
 
#8 ·
Now that's not true! Where'd you come up with that?

Are you one of those who think that women should be "barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen" or an adherent to a religion which devalues its women?
 
#9 · (Edited)
To the OP:

Trust me, there is time and room for relations in very questionable places.

Why would women want to be on subs? Simple, the same reasons you want to be. It's exciting and cool and you are on the forefront of ocean technology.

Dirty boat sailors.....have you smelled the crew on a mudboat in the gulf?? Stinky stinky. I once boarded a first class plane out of Galveston (Houston) and people wondered "what that smell was". Well, it was me. Diesel and stink. I'm sure the new nukes with the no smoking policies are super clean.

Share the love of the sea with women. In all cases of the boats I've been on the crew of mostly men has been happy to have me and they say the all guy crew is more tempered by a woman or two. i.e they LIKE it.

Maybe the fact that it won't be the same is a good thing.
 
#87 ·
I'm just glad that here is yet another opportunity for my daughter, if she should choose to serve. As for bad effects on the crew/discipline/morale, my experience in the USCG (a service that has long made no distinction between where men and women can serve) matches perfectly with what Cammo says:

In all cases of the boats I've been on the crew of mostly men has been happy to have me and they say the all guy crew is more tempered by a woman or two. i.e they LIKE it.

Maybe the fact that it won't be the same is a good thing.
 
#10 ·
Women generally don't bring a lot to the table in most professions.
I personally know of numerous professions and schools where women easily constitute 75-90% of the Top 10 to Top 25%.

Your simple conclusion is rather stark and simplistic. Elaborate?
 
#11 ·
"I personally know of numerous professions and schools where women easily constitute 75-90% of the Top 10 to Top 25%."

Yep, both in school and in the world of business. That's bringing quite a lot to the table.
 
#13 ·
Lots of 20 somethings men and women confined in close quarters for months at a time?
Nothing good is going to come from that.

It will not make a more combat effective team and it will be very problematic for Commanding Officers.

It is nothing more than a social experiment fostered upon the miliatary by military loathing liberals.

Ask any real Commanding Officer (not some desk jockey political appointee) what they think about it (privately and off the record) and see what they have to say about it...but do it only if you can handle the truth.
 
#19 ·
I don't see a whole lot of wives of married submariners supporting the women boat mates. I wonder if there will be a spike in divorce numbers for submariners? I'm betting there will be.

I know a lot about human nature, and I have little doubt there will be a lot of hanky panky spanky "oops, I'm pregnant" going on.
 
#14 ·
My nephew is a submarine navigator based on the west coast. He took some classes with two women doing training in preparation for the day they are allowed on-board submarines. He was quite impressed with both of them and said he wouldn't be worried having them on 'his' sub.
He has to work under conditions that I can only imagine. If HE doesn't have a problem with having women on-board who am I to say they can't?
 
#17 ·
I have two cats, a boy and a momma cat. Guess who is the better huntress (did I give it away?) I think the mixed crew will work as well as it does in the private sector. However, in the workplace, in the foxhole, and on board ship, there will bound to be distractions and hormones. Do we really hear about the assaults and pregnancies on our floating cities? What will happen when the GLBT activists require same sex marriages hundreds of feet under the waves? Jefferson said that our men and women, young and old of the American revolution, fought so that their children could study philosophy, music, and art.

Now try to tell the men of the French resistance that women bring nothing to the table. I've lived through the Korean war, the cold war, the Vietnam war, and the so called "peace dividend" after the fall of the USSR. The world is no safer, because the military-industrial-NWO elites keep stirring the pot for their profit, while the flower of our youth bleed in the sand. Tell you what, send the boys and girls home to have a happy life, and send us old folks and politicians out there to do the banksters dirty work. I've had a good life, with children and grandchildren, and I'm determined to keep them safe. So what if I have to stop and pee every ten minutes. Grandma will show them what a hot flash really means. Peace.
 
#21 ·
I've flown with many, many female aircrew members. Some good, some not so good, just like the men. While I can somewhat reluctantly agree with the idea that America just shouldn't send our wives and daughters to war, preserving some "dirty sailor traditions" is a ridiculous reason for not allowing women to serve. Seriously? You can't walk around naked anymore or put on whatever ****-erotic skits that used to qualifiy as humor in the US Navy? Asinine. And any woman who divorces her husband b/c he has to work next to a woman isn't very much of a wife. I'd also be willing to wager that many of the posters who don't like this idea are 55+ years of age. Times have changed, attitudes have changed. If you don't like it, then you should probably opt out of the all-volunteer force. You, me, or the guy next door doesn't have a say in whether women can fly airplanes, shoot a rifle, or serve on a sub. Seriously, I understand people have opinions on women in combat, but let's keep the focus on the physical limitations and not on ridiculous traditions or the spectre of increased sexual relations among the troops.

Kim Campbell (pilot) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
#22 ·
I fit the 55+ crowd and I have NO problem with women serving. I do have a problem with them having a modified physical training requirement for the same job as a man. If they can do the same exact task then by all means, jump right in there.

I don't know how it is today but in the early 70s they had modified PT and lesser requirements for lifting and other physical traits. That didn't work too well but there were many that could do the same and I was comfortable with them having my life in their hands.
 
#23 ·
I am all for equal rights and treatment. A unit eats, sleeps, showers, goes to the head, trains, DOES EVERYTHING together. Open the draft to women, mandate the same exact training regiments, etc. You want to defend our country, I will gladly accept that generous and courageous offer, just do not expect special treatment based on gender. You want to be a soldier? I salute you.

I will YET AGAIN play the nerd card... Look at Vasquez in the movie Aliens... Would you trust her to have your back? I sure would.
 
#25 ·
Looks like the thread's original premise evolved into a debate about equal gender-based rights, mental capacity and/or skill levels in non-physically demanding occupations - of which there is no valid argument to allege any superiority on either side. The question also had nothing to do with arguing equal attributes or the ability to perform any highly-technical task with the same degree of proficiency regardless of gender.

The question was "what problems can be expected when a chicken is running at equal speed among a pack of hungry coyotes?"

In this particular arena, equal skill, mental capacity, technical knowledge and performance ability has nothing to do with with the inherent peril of the scenario's basic disregard of nature's primordial drives and instincts that all the laws on the planet are difficult to control or suppress - especially in long-term, extremely close-quarter, captive environments. The mixed pack of coyotes and a chicken can probably run together for reasonable periods as long they are all well-fed and regularly split up to go their separate ways to feed themselves before getting together again for the next joint run. However, the longer they run together in tight formation without breaking up to feed, increasing hunger will quickly begin diverting the focus of the pack's majority away from their intended pursuit and more toward "what's for dinner". Even if the chicken was a rooster or a hen that was as strong as (or wanted to be) a rooster, it is still a chicken dinner in the eyes of the hungry coyotes.

Even in the relatively close confines of a small ship, there is still a reasonable amount of room for the chicken(s) and coyotes to maintain some degree of individual "space", allow a tiny bit of privacy, and provide the ability to frequently escape the ship's confines to go out on deck for some fresh air and sunshine. My son is currently under some distant ocean (that only God and the Navy knows where) on a relatively large "boomer" (converted Trident-class now carrying a belly full of Tomahawk cruise missles); and even with the "larger" interior, the coyotes are still pretty much packed almost nose-to-tail like a sled-dog team without seeing the sunshine for weeks at a time. According to him, a chicken on the boat is going to eventually cause one of the hungry coyote's attention to be diverted from a critical task that could easily be the last mistake made for all parties concerned. He has expressed very great reservations about the idea which have nothing to do with equality, ability or professional performance.
 
#28 ·
Then the "coyote" in question needs to learn to control himself and pay attention to the task at hand. If he (or she) can't do that, then they don't belong in the military, much less on a nuclear sub. Honestly, despite your big words and rather tortured analogy (are there no female coyotes running with the pack? They have to be chickens? Huh?), you make it sound like all of these submariners are potential rapists if a woman spends too much time among them. I'm not buying it. I can see it now..."But, sir, I would've picked up that ridge on sonar if Lt Jones wasn't simply standing there in front of me, looking all like a female and stuff. It's her fault!" Laughable.
 
#29 ·
OK...I gotta word this to bring back to the points I had in mind...unfortunately that's not easy to do. The problem here is I spent 6 years (2001-2007) stationed on board a submarine (USS Miami), a fast attack boat half the size of a boomer. Conveying the attitude and feelings of the crew as one goes through the qualification process is almost impossible but I'm gonna try.

When one shows up brand new to the boat he is unqualified and untrusted. The learning curve to understand the different aspects of operations on board a submarine is rediculously steep. The reason for this is when you show up you get a stack of qualification cards. Within these are lists of subjects with a space for a designated qualified individual to sign when you go to him for a "check out." The qualified individual will test your knowledge by quizzing you on whatever subject that may be. I was a nuclear operator so the majority of my qual cards had to do with the engineering spaces and the reactor itself. When you have finished all of the "checkouts" in a particular area you will go to several division officers and then department heads and in some cases the XO and then the CO (my final qualification for Reactor Operator and Shutdown Reactor Operator where with the captain). Also everyone gets a Submarine qual card (this is to receive the mandatory submarine warefare pin you see in my avatar. All of these qual cards are required to be completed within a certain amount of time.

Ok first of all this process sucks for the individual that is in quals (which may last well over a year) but it works. It weeds out the ones who don't have the intestinal fotutude to undergo trying experiences. Also if you say the wrong thing to the wrong person good luck getting qualified. Within a crew of a 120 guys your reputation is known very quickly...there are no secrets. If you get the reputation of being a dirtbag then most everyone you go to to get a checkout "won't have time," or is going to give the hardest time of your life to get that signature. This is the right of passage for the submariner. This is the common bond that makes the whole crew, for better or worse, know everyones first name from the captain down. So you can imagine political correctness goes out the window as soon as the boats underway (assuming we don't have an inspection team on board or something.)

OK second and this is to Lima and Cammo, I have nothing but respect for women who wish to serve their country nor do I believe that women can't do the job (these women completed the Naval Nuclear Power Training pipeline which in my opinion is the most demanding academic environment in the world, so yeah they're plenty intelligent.) The problem comes from what happens when your in close proximity to someone you don't like (trust me this happens and is the worse cased scenario.) You get put in a watch section with someone who doesn't play well with others for a six month deployment, where you get the joy of spending the vast majority of your waking time with them...this sucks. Now here's for the tough part...in my experience in an all male envoronment men know how to shut the hell up and just endure. 2 guys in this situation will with few exception will learn to just shut their mouths and get through it without killing each other. In my civilian experience with office politics...well lets leave it at, as a rule women are not so good at this.

Now alot of this stems from the fact that people don't like change, including me. I guess women on Submarines was inevitable but I'm glad it happened after my time in the navy. Franckly I like the way it was when I was in and it won't be the same.

Lastly for you who would insult submariner traditions by flippantly saying they can just change and that's a good thing...remember these traditions are what binds the submarine force into the extreemly tight nit community that it is. That being said my responce would be no thanks, there is something wrong with having change forced upon your traditions.
 
#32 ·
When I started my career working in the woods back in the 80's it was still mainly a man's job but woman were pushing there way in. There was a lot of resentment from the guys as most of the woman were getting hired through equal rights and quota's. Basically the white male was now being discriminated against.

My pholosopy then and now about woman or even wimpy guys in a physical male dominated job is if they can do the job then great, if they can't then they will get no break from me. I have had woman that expected me to carry more gear in my pack because there's was to heavy, need more brakes because they couldn't keep up, and generally play the girl card until they finally figured out I didn't care. Now on the other hand there has been quite a few woman along the way that have excelled at the job and could hike my butt into the ground, pound more fire line, run a saw better and longer then most men. These woman are few and far between but there out there.

As far as woman in harms way, I say if they can do the job and want to go get killed then let them go. This day and age everyone wants to be treated equal so let's make it equal, why is it always the man's job to go off to war and get killed?
 
#33 ·
OK I would like to note with technology on board war time or peace time off the coast of somewhere I can't talk about or in the carribian, the coffee still tasted the same. Alot of REALLY bad things have to happen before anyone on a submarine is dying in combat. Hell our own surface navy can't find us and trust me when I say other countries CAN NOT track us.
 
#38 ·
OK, I gonna sound-off on this. Like doodle, this IS my area of expertiece......although I'm a 'coner' and not one of them Rickover Univerisity larvi.......HAhahaha. (HAD to go there)

I'm a submariner. I've done 19 years and 10 months within the submarine community. I retire in January. I've been on the Fast-Attacks in the Pacific.......done a LOT of 'stuff'....... ya know, that Tom Clancy kinda stuff ya can't 'talk' about. I've been serving in the SSBN 'boomer' fleet for the last ten years under the Atlantic. Like doodle (and his avatar) I earned my dolphins. Dunno what that means?......then use your google-fu and look it up.

I'm retiring off my final command, the USS Wyoming (SSBN 742) (Blue). This boat (both crews) will be checking onboard, in January, her first TWO women. It's expected to be the first sub to get underway with women onboard, although that may change...... underway schedules change with the wind....but the women are coming and their here to stay. Argee or disagree, it matters not. We, as submariners, AND as humans, resist change. This is good, change I mean. It will be EXTREEMLY diffrent, and difficult, to assimalate this change, but it will be done.

Now, as for myself and my own opinion, I'm skeptical but accepting of this change. Women can, and will, do the job. There are people, male AND/OR female, who will wash-out, can't hack it. Good ridence. I have NO room for you onboard my boat. I trust you with the boat while I, and others, have been relieved of the watch. While I have the watch, trust in me to 'take care of business', keeping my AOR on watch ready to fight, to keep the safety ot the ship, the mission on course, and water outta the 'people-tank'. If I cannot trust in you, male or female, to do the same, goodbye. Women WILL do this.... they'll 'make the cut' AND be washed out, just like MANY male submariners before them. THAT tradition WILL remaine a constant. No, I won't be able, or allowed, to go to the showers wearing nothing but a grin and a towel over my sholder anymore......OK, I can become even more of a professional in that respect, my brothers (and sisters to come) will do the same. If they can't, goodbye. If the close quarters and sexual tension become too much, male OR female, and 'relations' happen..... goodbye. You EARN the trust of your shipmates, regardless of gender. You lose that , then goodbye and good ridence.

Now, my reservations with women intergrating in my community are this....... Will we, as submariners, be forced to abandon those triditions that are the cornerstones of our fighting force, OR will the women be allowed to become a part of our triditions? The latter is what has to happen. Regardless, we ARE the dominate force of the seas, professionals (and even a little unprofessional at times too) who take care of business. Women will become a part of this. My shipmates have accepted this and we're anticipating our new NUB females arrival. Most of us submariners are ready for the change, wether it's liked or not.

Way back when, one of the reasons I volunteered for the silent service was becauce it WAS one of the last, great 'mens-clubs', a small, quiet community of sea-going butt-kickers. I have matured some since then, grown-up a little, but my soul is still intact. After 20 years, I don't care about male or female crap, drama, whinning, any of it. You'll do the job, complete the mission, or you'll be removed........ goodbye.

Also, I've read every post thus far. The berateing of women, be it combat or otherwise, has no place. Women, for the most part have EARNED their place. Those for or aginst women in my sub service (yes, I said 'my' service...... I take and accept part-ownership of 'my' community.......they are MY Shipmates) will be pushed aside while my Shipmates (male AND female alike) continue on takeing care of business.

Here's one, small aspect of our lives to ponder; http://www.goatlocker.org/boats/integrity.htmIntegrity: The Heart of Navy Core Values for the Submariner By "A Submariner"

The following essay was written by a young enlisted submariner as a disciplinary assignment after a Captain's Mast for taking a shortcut in a maintenance procedure. Both the author and his Commanding Officer agreed to its publication in Undersea Warfare magazine Volume 3, No.1.

Integrity is the heart and the very essence of each Navy Core Value, but more importantly, it is the foundation on which every aspect of submarine operations is built. Integrity must be the standard instilled within the innermost heart of every man who takes a submarine to the uttermost depths of the sea.

It is integrity that bonds the crew of a submarine so tightly together that when faced with any circumstance, each individual can trust his shipmate to meet the needs of the moment. Integrity comes from within each man's heart and is revealed through his respect for the standards of conduct. As a submariner, it is my duty and responsibility to maintain the highest degree of integrity while serving my country with honor, courage, and commitment in the United States Navy.

When I think of the word "integrity" as a submariner, I think naturally of the phrase watertight integrity. When we shut the hatches, we value the assurance that no water is going to enter into the people tank, because those hatches have been inspected, both during PMS, and just before shutting them. As a member of the Auxiliary Division, I have been taught the importance of taking care of our hatches and ensuring the quality of their condition whenever we inspect and conduct maintenance on them. Every one of my shipmates' lives depends on my personal integrity in ensuring that our hatches are squared away. And even when they are rigged for dive, they are second-checked to guarantee their watertightness. I say all of this to illustrate the importance of integrity on a submarine. Every submariner is entrusted with the responsibility to operate this vessel of war according to the procedures established for each ship's system. This ensures the safety of our operation and our ability to complete each mission successfully. No matter how big or small the task I am entrusted with, one mistake could threaten the lives of every one of my shipmates.

The procedures that we use today have been written through trial and error in the blood of submariners who have served before me. Following these procedures is not just a recommendation; it is our duty to use them. There is not always someone looking look over my shoulder to make sure that I use required procedures to operate a system or conduct maintenance, nor should there need to be. It is only my personal integrity that guarantees I will accomplish an assigned task properly. There is no room for compromise in the integrity of our word and deed. We are faced with important decisions every day of our lives. It is vital that we evaluate every detail of every situation before we make a decision. I have learned that rushing myself in that process usually results in poor judgment. When I rush to accomplish a job, I lose sight of both what is important and the possible consequences of my actions. The focus becomes only getting the job done by any means possible. Looking back at the mistake I made in attempting to accomplish PMS without a procedure, I see that the time I saved was not worth the compromise of my integrity. Trying to rush my work actually cost my shipmates and I more time and effort than if I had done it properly the first time, not to mention the consequences of my actions if something had gone wrong.
As a submarine sailor I must adhere to the Core Values of the Navy to maintain the military standards of responsibility, order, and discipline. I must have the Honor to deal rightly with all that is entrusted to me - to be loyal, obedient, and respectful to all those appointed over me and to accept my duty of service. I need to have the Courage to stand up for what is right, even when faced with adversity. Courage accompanied with honesty will guide me to the right decisions. I need to be committed to my responsibility and duties as I obey the orders given to me. Commitment requires self-discipline and a devotion to maintain the highest standards of integrity in my profession. An outstanding submarine crew is one that operates consciously as a team to protect the freedom of their country, while observing Core Values within their hearts. In closing, I would like to say that writing this essay has given me the opportunity to meditate on what it means to be a submariner. Integrity is the key essential of the submarine service. I believe we must focus on being consistent in word and deed to maintain our integrity with responsibility, order, and discipline. I have worked hard to build a reputation for being a trustworthy auxiliaryman, but it only takes one mistake to destroy the respect for my integrity that I worked so hard to gain. It is my duty to set the standard for integrity as a member of the Auxiliary Division, and as a submariner on board my ship. I do realize that I am not perfect and will make mistakes, but it is from those mistakes and the mistakes of others that we can learn and grow in our experiences throughout life. I thank God, the author of integrity, for the wisdom to discern its value and for showing the need to apply it to every area of my life.


Male or female, the Integrity of Shipmates will remain.

Now, off topic...... I'm about to be out of a job. Who's hiring?
 
#53 ·
Friggin coners...tit for tat...ha!
 
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