police chief shoots unarmed man and gets off

This is a discussion on police chief shoots unarmed man and gets off within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by oneshot ^^^^^^^^^How are you to know^^^^^^^^^ The guy jumping over the hood of your car,in his underpants is not the 7 OR ...

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Thread: police chief shoots unarmed man and gets off

  1. #31
    Ex Member Array gunther71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^How are you to know^^^^^^^^^


    The guy jumping over the hood of your car,in his underpants is not the 7 OR 8th degree black belt Sensai down at the local DoJo, and he is , for some reason going to get sideways on the universe, starting with YOU????

    So we could get off scott free if he as non police shot an unarmed guy in his under wear?

    cool

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunther71 View Post
    So we could get off scott free if he as non police shot an unarmed guy in his under wear?

    cool
    Defiantly not! Wearing underwear and being unarmed is no threat to anyone.
    Now if he were attacking you while wearing underwear and is also unarmed we have a whole different ballgame. He places you in fear of great bodily harm. In that case you should protect yourself by whatever means available to you.

    Michael

  4. #33
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    You can only use equal force in North Carolina? Wow! I'm glad we aren't hamstrung like that.
    Texas may be different. The definition I quoted come from Massad Ayoob's judicious use of force, which is designed to cover you in all 50 states. Here is a quote from an article on the subject:
    As civilians our only obligation and right is to keep ourselves and our families from being unlawfully injured or killed. We may only use equal force in response to the application of force against us. If we are not innocent of provoking a confrontation, or we are not being immediately threatened with deadly force, we cannot use deadly force in response. This is unlike the obligation of a sworn police officer who may use necessary force to fulfill his or her duties, such as seeking out and arresting malefactors.
    So, an unarmed guy in his skivvies is attacking you. Is there sufficient disparity of force to satisfy the Ability component for the justification of deadly force or is just the use of lesser force justified?
    Last edited by noway2; December 19th, 2011 at 05:12 AM. Reason: added link

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    The legal questions in Texas are do I reasonably believe the guy in his skivies is attempting to commit murder, sexual assault, or aggravated sexual assault? Or is he attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, me from my habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment or to unlawfully and with force enter my habitation, vehicle, etc?
    If so, under Texas law my belief is presumed to be reasonable that deadly force was immediately necessary as long as I did not provoke him, had a right to be where I was and was not committing anything more than a class "C" misdemeanor at the time.
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  6. #35
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    People keep pointing to the fact that this guy was dressed only in his skivvies as if that makes him less dangerous. Am I the only one who looks at his manner of dress as a indicator of danger?
    To me his attire would make me believe that he is probably mentally unstable. Tie that in with the fact that he is acting aggressively towards me and I would be in fear of him harming me.

    Michael

  7. #36
    Ex Member Array gunther71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    People keep pointing to the fact that this guy was dressed only in his skivvies as if that makes him less dangerous. Am I the only one who looks at his manner of dress as a indicator of danger?
    To me his attire would make me believe that he is probably mentally unstable. Tie that in with the fact that he is acting aggressively towards me and I would be in fear of him harming me.

    Michael
    No Michael, The whole point is..........In nc a police officer has more leeway simply because he is a police officer.. I look at it more like, A police officer should be held to higher standards since he has a use of force contium and weapons such as. verbal commands, Soft hand technique, hard control techniques, pepper spray, tazer, baton and ultimatly a side arm.
    Where as a normal citizen has maybe his cwp.
    This is a reaction that a normal citizen would have made, not a police chief.
    The guy screwed up and every one is blaming the 20 yr old drunk kid in his under wear.
    This cop knew better and should be held accountable for his actions
    NYCrulesU likes this.

  8. #37
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    Gunther, do a quick search of "Deputy Richard Herzog" for my counterpoint.

  9. #38
    Member Array jace33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Gunther, do a quick search of "Deputy Richard Herzog" for my counterpoint.
    point taken... what an awful thing...

    i too consider this a "justified shoot", being attacked in the doorjamb of my vehicle definately puts me in fear or great bodily harm and my life...

    thanks for the link mike...

    good thread everyone, lots of good food for thought!

  10. #39
    Ex Member Array gunther71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Gunther, do a quick search of "Deputy Richard Herzog" for my counterpoint.
    I know about that story, sad indeed.

    heres a little secret, i know the police chief from one of the local ranges(shoots like crap)
    I know the guy who is in the wheel chair( harmless quiet, was a hard worker) not a friend but seen him around town

    I won't forgive the chief

    The guy had the door jam pinned while lying across the roof of the car naked, thats why he got shot through the side
    was holding door lying sideways with only his arms, chief had both legs out on deck seated sideways like facing wind shield
    Last edited by SIXTO; December 28th, 2011 at 08:53 AM.

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunther71 View Post
    No Michael, The whole point is..........In nc a police officer has more leeway simply because he is a police officer.. I look at it more like, A police officer should be held to higher standards since he has a use of force contium and weapons such as. verbal commands, Soft hand technique, hard control techniques, pepper spray, tazer, baton and ultimatly a side arm.
    :SNIP:
    Sorry I thought the point was should police be given greater leeway when exercising self-defense. To that point in my earlier responses the answer should be a resounding no. I also agree that the Police or any agent of the Government must be held to higher standards.
    On to this particular instance. I can understand any reasonable person being in fear of great bodily harm. Police or private citizen.

    Michael

  12. #41
    Member Array Penhall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunther71 View Post
    I know about that story, sad indeed.

    heres a little secret, i know the police chief from one of the local ranges(shoots like crap)
    I know the guy who is in the wheel chair( harmless quiet, was a hard worker) not a friend but seen him around town

    I won't forgive the chief
    So, really, your post is all about an axe you have to grind with the police chief?
    1) How does how the police chief shoot factor into your original query?
    2) The guy obviously wasn't very harmless or quiet. The police were on scene due to a domestic disturbance. Rather than waiting harmlessly and quietly on his porch for the LEO to get out of his car, the person instead charges at an armed LEO in his underwear. That's the OPPOSITE of harmless and quiet.

    The guy had the door jam pinned while lying across the roof of the car naked, thats why he got shot through the side
    was holding door lying sideways with only his arms, chief had both legs out on deck seated sideways like facing wind shield

    the trial was public
    Possibly I'm mistaken, but aren't most Grand Jury's private? There was no trial since the Grand Jury didn't indict him, based on the evidence that was presented to them. What evidence do you have that they gave the LEO some sort of preferential treatment (besides your obvious internal bias towards this individual)? Based on your description of where the attacker was versus where the LEO was, I would have shot as well in that situation. I'd rather take my chances with a jury than have someone explain to my wife why I didn't come home.

    I'm not sure what sort of vindication you hope to receive here, but I don't think you'll find it.

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunther71 View Post
    No Michael, The whole point is..........In nc a police officer has more leeway simply because he is a police officer.
    Can you cite the statute that makes this the law in North Carolina? Or are you saying that the citizens of North Carolina are liars and can not be trusted to uphold oath they swear as grand jurors?

    The guy screwed up and every one is blaming the 20 yr old drunk kid in his under wear.
    Well let's take a look who contributed what to this whole situation.
    (Forget about all the evidence the grand jury, holding him accountable for his actions, heard and decided that there was insufficient evidence to say the cop violated any law.)
    We have 22 year old Mr. Osbun who decided to drink to excess.
    He then behaved in such a way that people present decided that the police needed to respond.
    When the police show up Mr. Osbun immediately attacks the responding officer before he can even get out of his car.
    We then have the officer who you say is pinned in his vehicle with his legs stuck between the door and the body of the car.
    So which soft or hard hand techniques do you use through the body of car? Last I heard tasers don't work so well through glass or steel. Pepper spray him through the windshield? Good luck with that one.

    And is this the same William S Osbun that is currently serving another 21months probation/ suspended sentence for a burglary conviction in Indiana in 2007?
    NC DOC Offender Public Information
    I am thinking it is as there was another article about this incident and there were people claiming to be family and friends of his in Indiana writing in to the comments section to tell us all what a fine upstanding citizen he is.

    So let's see...... The cop showed up (kind of had to, that is his job) and the only real point where he got to make a decision that controlled the outcome was when he pulled the trigger.
    Mr. Osbun's decisions.... 1) Get drunk. 2) Behave in such a way that people call the police. 3) Attack the officer before he can exit his vehicle. (a class "F" Felony by the way)
    So of four decisions that were made that got us to this end result three of them were made by Mr. Osbun. He had three times as many opportunities to prevent this outcome and you say it is the cop who is in the wrong here.
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  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunther71 View Post
    I know about that story, sad indeed.

    heres a little secret, i know the police chief from one of the local ranges(shoots like crap)
    I know the guy who is in the wheel chair( harmless quiet, was a hard worker) not a friend but seen him around town

    I won't forgive the chief
    And Rich Herzog was one of my best friends, and one of the finest men I have ever known.

  15. #44
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    what if

    What if this guy did this to one of us and we knew he was unarmed?

    What i mean by us is normal ccw citizens? In the state of Nc only?

    Would we get the same treatment the chief did by the grand jury?

    Honest answers please
    What if a cow jumped over the moon.

    Some idiot jumping on my car while half naked and acting the fool shouldnt expect any neighborly treatment from me. So what if he's in NC.
    I doubt we would get the same treatment, because we are not police. Would he have jumped on a car that was not police? Probably not. Lots of people take out their frustrations on cops because it makes them feel like a man.

    What was i thinking? the final verdicts are never unjust

    Just weird how the guy was in his under wear and all

    but hey
    Do you think at all? Did you ever consider that the Grand Jury might have judged that case on the facts provided to them, rather than some lame news article that you are using to pass judgement?

    Weird huh? Yeah,I'd say that some drunk yahoo attacking a police car with the police cheif in it is weird. Maybe he saw the opportunity and didnt have time to put his pants on...or it could be he was so spaced out he didnt know...or it could be he didnt care...but hey....


    No Michael, The whole point is..........In nc a police officer has more leeway simply because he is a police officer
    Baduh. That is one of the most enlightening quotes I have ever seen.

    .. I look at it more like, A police officer should be held to higher standards since he has a use of force contium and weapons such as. verbal commands, Soft hand technique, hard control techniques, pepper spray, tazer, baton and ultimatly a side arm.
    And you are judging the actions of a cop by your standards, while knowing nothing of police standards. Sounds about right.
    Where as a normal citizen has maybe his cwp.
    This is a reaction that a normal citizen would have made, not a police chief.
    So you are saying that the Police Chief should have done what? Acted like a normal citizen? You cant have it both ways now can you?

    The guy screwed up and every one is blaming the 20 yr old drunk kid in his under wear.
    Yeah...most people with a clue would blame a drunk 20 year old kid for attacking an armed police officer and getting his dumb underweared tail shot.

    This cop knew better and should be held accountable for his actions
    A Grand Jury held the cop accountable and found it to be justified.


    heres a little secret, i know the police chief from one of the local ranges(shoots like crap)
    I know the guy who is in the wheel chair( harmless quiet, was a hard worker) not a friend but seen him around town
    I won't forgive the chief
    Its not yours to forgive. And, its pretty apparent that you are anti-cop, because you see all cops as the big bad guys that cant shoot except at people that are laying on their windshields in their underwear...for no apparent reason.

    Dude...you need counseling cause you aint right. I'll bet you dont make a hundred posts here.

  16. #45
    Member Array Goldstar225's Avatar
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    This one's real simple. The case was presented to the Grand Jury by a prosecutor who seemed to feel the use of force was questionable (I take that to mean he wanted an indictment). The Grand Jury, comprised of Citizens decided that there was insufficent cause to believe that the Chiefs actions constituted a criminal act. In other words it's a good shoot.

    What more would a reasonable person want?

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