Friendly Fire Fatality......

This is a discussion on Friendly Fire Fatality...... within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Very sad for all LEO's involved. Official: Friendly fire likely killed agent in NY - Yahoo! News...

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Thread: Friendly Fire Fatality......

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Unhappy Friendly Fire Fatality......

    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

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    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    Sad indeed!
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    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Here we have a problem of shoot happy cops that didn’t take the time to sort out the players before reacting. so what if this was a civilian, the same outcome would have probably happened because the no one was ID'd with anything that puts them on the good side.

    Someone mentioned a ccw shield and everyone laughed it up but what makes sense that someone ID's you as a GG and not the BG. does it look like a police shield, sure does but that is the whole point of it and it might be the only thing that will save your life in a situation like this

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    Sad...nobody wins in a friendly fire OIS.

    On the other hand, an "off duty cop" sash?
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    Senior Member Array KoriBustard's Avatar
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    Friendly Fire; How does this happen?

    Maybe someone here with experience in law enforcement or the military can give me some idea about how this could happen. An off duty ATF officer is shot (and killed) by a retired police lieutenant while the AFT agent fought with an armed robber at a pharmacy. The robber was also shot (and killed) by a NY police officer who accompanied the police lieutenant to the scene. No other details in this article but I have two questions; 1) how does this type of thing happen and 2) how do we inform an LEO that we're the good guy if we're caught in a similar situation?

    The Associated Press: Official: Friendly fire likely killed agent in NY
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    Distinguished Member Array Elk Hunter's Avatar
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    Heart breaking

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    These things happen quickly...neither one was in uniform and they could not ID each other.

    You can inform a LEO you are a good guy, but that won't count. You'll probably spend some time in handcuffs if you aren't shot yourself until it gets straightened out. If you are confronted by a LEO after a shooting, follow all instructions and do not have a gun in your hand.

    And for all that is holy....DO NOT break out your CCW badge or accompanying sash...you might get shot on principle.
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    VIP Member Array sgb's Avatar
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    Nothing friendly about getting killed.

    These fools are why you mind your own business and leave it to the Uniformed Officers
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    I suspect that in gun-hostile states like New York, it may be more natural for LEOs to assume that anyone armed and not in uniform or displaying a badge is a BG. I know I have been reading a bunch of similar reports coming out of the Empire State.

    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    Here we have a problem of shoot happy cops that didnít take the time to sort out the players before reacting. so what if this was a civilian, the same outcome would have probably happened because the no one was ID'd with anything that puts them on the good side.

    Someone mentioned a ccw shield and everyone laughed it up but what makes sense that someone ID's you as a GG and not the BG. does it look like a police shield, sure does but that is the whole point of it and it might be the only thing that will save your life in a situation like this
    Unless one of them was active military, they were all civilians.
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  11. #10
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    "Friendly Fire" in the military is a euphemism for somebody screwed up. There is nothing "friendly" about being fired upon.

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    As SIGguy229 said, these things happen fast. The decision to shoot is a split second decision that must be made. In this case the decision made had a bad outcome. For all we know the ATF agent may have had his badge displayed, but due to the fact he was grappling with the BG it wasn't visible to the other 2 individuals.

    Either way, condolences go out to the families and friends of all involved.
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    Senior Member Array ntkb's Avatar
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    They shoot each other with full uniforms on often enough, they need to learn to handle a firearm.

    So does this mean that the retired NY LEO will be charged like I keep hearing that you are responsible for every round that leaves your gun?

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    Member Array ncsteveh's Avatar
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    I know that my dads stance is, since he is now retired he has no duty to engage nor does he have the backing of the departments insurance policy and union lawyers. Unless he see's it turning for the worse he won't get involved.

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    Member Array Eaglebeak's Avatar
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    First of all, there's no such thing as "friendly fire" - it's all "unfriendly and deadly" regardless of from whom or where it comes.

    It's another tragic event of gross failure to identify "friend or foe" before squeezing the trigger. Even a LEO (uniformed or not) arriving on a scene is going to be in major legal trouble for firing on anyone who's not pointing a weapon in his/her direction (to claim self-defense) when the nature of the event or identity of the participants is unknown at the time.

    Even though most off-duty or otherwise non-uniformed LEO's feel obligated to intervene when they observe something going down, they have to remember they're going to look like just another "Joe-perp with a gun" to other LEOs or CC citizens who may either be present or just arriving on the scene. Unless a non-uniformed LEO or CC citizen is ready to face the possible consequences of such action from a trigger-happy third-party, the wisest choice is avoid engagement, call for uniformed backup, and keep your distance while remaining only in SA/self-defense mode without a drawn weapon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KoriBustard View Post
    Maybe someone here with experience in law enforcement or the military can give me some idea about how this could happen. An off duty ATF officer is shot (and killed) by a retired police lieutenant while the AFT agent fought with an armed robber at a pharmacy. The robber was also shot (and killed) by a NY police officer who accompanied the police lieutenant to the scene. No other details in this article but I have two questions; 1) how does this type of thing happen and 2) how do we inform an LEO that we're the good guy if we're caught in a similar situation?

    The Associated Press: Official: Friendly fire likely killed agent in NY
    OK... These things happen from time to time. Horrible, but they do happen. Not sure about other locations but NY has several things in place to prevent them. The responding Officers may have implimented at least one of these methods, but the Federal Agent may not have known the proper response. Of course this is all speculation. These things when trhey do happen... happen real fast. These "critical incidents" as some call em also cause the actors to use tunnel vision. Focusing on the threat they percieve, often missing a second threat, or the commands of other police on the scene. This happens with civil police as well as CIVILIANS.

    MY prayers are with the family of this agent who made his effort to keep the community he lives safe, and paid the ultimate price for his dedication.

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