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student killed by police had a pellet gun

This is a discussion on student killed by police had a pellet gun within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; People keep saying you don't point guns at police, which is of course true. The problem is we no longer distinguish between toy guns, facsimiles, ...

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Thread: student killed by police had a pellet gun

  1. #31
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    People keep saying you don't point guns at police, which is of course true. The problem is we no longer distinguish between toy guns, facsimiles, artist models made from modeling clay, fingers pointed like a gun, or decorations on a purse which depict a gun.

    This business of kids getting killed while playing (which I don't think was the case here since the kid had assaulted another student--not play) is mostly a relatively new issue. Sure, rare mistakes were made in the past and that's why many places banned toy guns and many other places insisted on the red painted barrel, but bazillions of kids played with toy guns throughout the 1940s, 50s, 60s, and mistaken police killings were exceedingly rare. Boys need to be raised as boys doing boy things.

    I think this killing was sadly justified, but I'm trying to get a a broader picture. Something is wrong culturally when boys can't do boy things and when cops (and especially teachers) can't or won't discern game playing from reality, play fighting from real fighting.

    I had company for a couple of days. The lady is a school psychologist in another developed country. She was talking about various things which indicate (to her mind) that intervention is needed. Specifically the two things which came up were drawings of a gun aimed at someone, and what she called animal cruelty. I differed. Boys kill frogs and try to see what is inside. They play with insects and earthworms. This by itself is no indication of future anti-social activity. It is an indicator of a future physiologist, perhaps.

    A drawing of a gun pointed at a teacher is not a threat. It is an outlet. You have to do something which is impossible, be a mind reader, to determine intention. In children such a drawing is almost always just an outlet-- and a darn safe one too.

    Boys need to play fight, and boys need to play with knives and toy gun. Neither of which by themselves make someone marked for a life of crime or anti-social behavior.

    I have no easy answer, but sissifying our boys isn't it. Criminalizing child's play isn't it too.
    TomEgun, Spade115 and gunsnroses like this.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  2. #32
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elk Hunter View Post
    You are so right, the world comes at the kids much faster and many are not taught how to make good decisions. The influance they get as you point out is not the best.
    Gotta totally disagree with ya. How is the world coming at them to fast? I had TV growing up, they have TV. They have an XBOX, don't buy them M rated games. They get on the internet, tell them you have spyware on it and you will sometimes sit down with them and do a spot check (modern day version of looking in their closet for Playboys), don't like them hanging out on Facebook, twitter? (DO NOT LET THEM), don't like the "bad" kids he hangs out with, ya know what, he might be a "bad" kid so don't let him hang out them. Is the kid bored at home looking for something to do? I don't care if you work 2 jobs, when ya get home, turn the TV off at dinner and sit down as a family and TALK. Too many stupid things on TV, turn on a documentary and talk about it. Kids brain turning to mush (and the parents), sit down at the dinner table and pose a question for debate (politics, sports, music your kid likes vs what you like). You will learn things also. Kid wants to play a sport but can't afford it, then the parent might need to cut back on the cable bill, the iPhones, and that new 65 inch TV for the man cave. Instead of a new video game every month give the child a Kindle (not an iPad) and preload it with books.
    I think it is called parenting. The world is going to fast for the PARENTS to make decisions. Not the child. The parents are the ones leaving the kids behind.

    Discalimer: I am by far not the best parent inthe world, the above is what works for us. Even when I was gone on trips and came home, no matter how tired I was, it was always about being with my son.

  3. #33
    Ex Member Array JBachman's Avatar
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    I don't have nor will I ever have kids. I personally can't stand 'em. From what I am exposed to and see, it seems today's parents are becoming too "hands off" when it comes to their children. Everyone else is responsible for the little brats actions... Everyone else BUT the parent. I cannot sit at a family style restaurant without some little kids running down the aisle and almost tripping the server. Now these parents of the idiotic kid who decided it would be a terrific idea to point a gun - real or not, at police want "answers". I have a few answers... You and your kid are an idiot. I am 37. My parent (Mom) taught me right from wrong, don't play with matches, don't play with guns, and so on. She worked AND went to nursing school, yet somehow she was involved in my life and knew where I was all the time. Parents need to wake up.

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  4. #34
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    From what I understand, the dead boy, was coming back to again assault the boy he had already assaulted....this time with the BB Gun. Believe me, that BB Gun could have done a lot of damage at close range.....perhaps even killed the other boy with a well placed shot. Guns are not allowed on school grounds. He had a gun on school grounds. Lat time I checked, a BB Gun, was considered a gun, a weapon. Correct? The officer(s) had no way of discerning in that situation, he was in posession of a BB Gun. Either way, a gun is a gun is a gun.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    IMO, kids today have no sense of their own mortality. . .
    Kids today? As I recall, I did some pretty bizarre things when I was young with no thoughts as to the outcome. Mortality does not cross a teen's mind, in any era. Where I (stupidly) drank and drove, kids today text and drive--but the results are just as predictable.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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  6. #36
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBachman View Post
    From what I am exposed to and see, it seems today's parents are becoming too "hands off" when it comes to their children. Everyone else is responsible for the little brats actions... Everyone else BUT the parent.
    Don't you watch TV? "It takes a village to raise a child"
    -Hillary Clinton

    RUBBISH

  7. #37
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    Very sad and feel that there is more to this tragedy.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array WD54241's Avatar
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    Ordered 3 times to drop the weapon. He was given a chance. Parents crying foul.

  9. #39
    Ex Member Array JBachman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Don't you watch TV? "It takes a village to raise a child"
    -Hillary Clinton

    RUBBISH
    Yeah... Maybe 50 years ago when Dad worked 9-5 M-F and Mom wad a housewife and around the little angels all the time. Times have changed.

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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfcc View Post
    From what I understand, the dead boy, was coming back to again assault the boy he had already assaulted....this time with the BB Gun. Believe me, that BB Gun could have done a lot of damage at close range.....perhaps even killed the other boy with a well placed shot. Guns are not allowed on school grounds. He had a gun on school grounds. Lat time I checked, a BB Gun, was considered a gun, a weapon. Correct? The officer(s) had no way of discerning in that situation, he was in posession of a BB Gun. Either way, a gun is a gun is a gun.
    And all were allowed on school grounds at one time, and really not all that long ago. In this instance the dead boy WAS doing something wrong; he committed assault and was about to do it with a pellet gun. Perhaps he was too immature to understand the magnitude of the crimes he was doing, but that is not the officer's problem.

    Nonetheless, the notion that toy guns and BB guns and pellet guns = firearms is ridiculous.

    They are not the equivalent, even if the latter two are sometimes able to cause great harm.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBachman View Post
    Yeah... Maybe 50 years ago when Dad worked 9-5 M-F and Mom wad a housewife and around the little angels all the time. Times have changed.

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    I can tell you that 53 years ago I was able to carry a rifle to HS in NYC; children haven't changed. Societal attitude has. We have too many
    folks trying to turn boys into girls.

    (And yes, I'm still a liberal.)
    Harryball, TomEgun and Brass63 like this.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  12. #42
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    Crappy, inattentive parenting. It doesn't take two incomes to "survive", it takes two incomes to get stuff.
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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  13. #43
    Ex Member Array JBachman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I can tell you that 53 years ago I was able to carry a rifle to HS in NYC; children haven't changed. Societal attitude has. We have too many
    folks trying to turn boys into girls.

    (And yes, I'm still a liberal.)
    I didn't imply that the little darlings have changed. The little SOBs have and always will try to get away with whatever they can. Personally, I don't think they're beaten enough. And I'm sorry you're still a liberal.

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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by WD54241 View Post
    Ordered 3 times to drop the weapon. He was given a chance. Parents crying foul.
    Yeah, I just saw some interview with the father... I gotta say that being a father, I feel for him. I cannot imagine what losing a child would do to me and I'm truly sorry that he, or anyone else who has dealt with that, has to go through it. Awful.

    That said, I'm sorry but the father has no business looking past his own parenting and involvement into that terrible tragedy. His son wasn't 'needlessly' killed. He was killed because he was a deadly threat in the eyes of the police who responded. Period. Sure, if they knew that he was brandishing a BB gun, then things would be different. But there is no way anyone could know that except for the child holding it. No way those officers could have responded differently. If they did and that gun had been real, they'd be the one in the morgue.

    Ask any parent whose child died at Columbine if they would have approved of an officer killing those shooters before their carnage was complete and you'll have a better appreciation why that situation was handled correctly by the responding LE.

  15. #45
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    To anyone who says that America is the same now as it was twenty five years ago, all I can say is wake up and smell the coffee.... You only have to go as far as the FCC and see how drastically things have changed over the years... Heck, They now allow things to be said over the air that they used to come down hard on big-time in the past.... I'm not giving this kid a free pass by a long shot, but I'm also not saying he had his chance so screw him either... It's my contention that a lot more crimes are being commented by younger and younger boys and girls for some reason, and just what that reason is, I don't have a clue, but never the less it is happening. To deny that fact and you're just kidding yourself. You can blame it on the parents, sure take the easy route, but before you pat yourself on the back and feel like the lone ranger, you should think about all the child cruelty laws in place nowadays. It used to be that a mother, or father could smack the hella outa a unruly child back in the day and no one would say a thing about it... Try that crap today and you'll most likely have someone calling the Family and children's services on ya and swearing that you were beating your child mercilessly and soon be possibly spending some time in the poky and spending some cash in the court system. Again, not saying this kid didn't deserve what he got, but I'm not going sit back in my office with limited information and pass judgment regarding the youth and take the cavalier attitude and say, Ah screw him, not my problem. Some kids today have the "You can't touch me attitude" and I'm sure some parents are somewhat intimidated by that fact.

    Anyway, you guys have at it; for me, this horse is dead. However, I still believe that time has changed a lot of things over the years and the attitudes of our youth is one of um. Peace!

    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

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