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student killed by police had a pellet gun

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Thread: student killed by police had a pellet gun

  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array GunGeezer's Avatar
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    Oct 2009
    In the 40's & 50's you never heard of a teenager attacking a policeman. Police walked a beat and most were known and respected by children & adults. Gangs were non-existent. My father would still be in jail today for some of the beatings I got. I still think today, he let his bad temper override his good judgment when it came to discipline. However, I grew up not nearly as worried about what teachers, principals or police would do to me as I was about what my father would do if he found out. Ever since parents began expecting Television and the school system to raise their children and social do-gooder's decided spankings were bad for a child's self-image, respect for authority, discipline and fear of consequences has all but disappeared. Discipline is not administered with any consistency in schools. It all depends upon how tough the teacher is. Very few are alike. This confuses children because they can get away with things in one class and get in trouble for the same things in another. If the parents were consistent with discipline and punishment, the kids would know going in what they could and could not do.

    Gangs, drugs, alcohol, movie & TV violence, modern psychology and computers have further eroded the family unit, as has both parents working, gay marriage and government political correctness mandates regarding religion in school and society.

    Lack of accountability always shift the blame to somebody else. The buzz-words are "you're not at fault". Everybody passes the buck until final responsibility is shared by the entire universe with no one more guilty than an innocent bystander. That is why I believe so many people are pessimistic about the future of our country. The problems seem insurmountable.
    TomEgun and 64zebra like this.

  2. #47
    Member Array bolocanolo's Avatar
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    And the "booby" price goes to the parents!!! They made him who he was.

  3. #48
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    You refuse to drop the gun when ordered to by police, expect to get shot. In a high stress situation like that, whether it is a pellet gun or not is the last thing on the officers mind.
    I would have done the same thing if someone pointed a pellet gun at me. I have no sympathy for that kid who failed to follow officers' instructions. Some kids these days need to get whupped.

  4. #49
    VIP Member Array swiftyjuan's Avatar
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    Personally, I feel sorry for the officers.
    Assault is a behavior, not a device.

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  5. #50
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    Array 64zebra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    People keep saying you don't point guns at police, which is of course true. The problem is we no longer distinguish between toy guns, facsimiles, artist models made from modeling clay, fingers pointed like a gun, or decorations on a purse which depict a gun.

    This business of kids getting killed while playing (which I don't think was the case here since the kid had assaulted another student--not play) is mostly a relatively new issue. Sure, rare mistakes were made in the past and that's why many places banned toy guns and many other places insisted on the red painted barrel, but bazillions of kids played with toy guns throughout the 1940s, 50s, 60s, and mistaken police killings were exceedingly rare. Boys need to be raised as boys doing boy things.

    I think this killing was sadly justified, but I'm trying to get a a broader picture. Something is wrong culturally when boys can't do boy things and when cops (and especially teachers) can't or won't discern game playing from reality, play fighting from real fighting.

    I had company for a couple of days. The lady is a school psychologist in another developed country. She was talking about various things which indicate (to her mind) that intervention is needed. Specifically the two things which came up were drawings of a gun aimed at someone, and what she called animal cruelty. I differed. Boys kill frogs and try to see what is inside. They play with insects and earthworms. This by itself is no indication of future anti-social activity. It is an indicator of a future physiologist, perhaps.

    A drawing of a gun pointed at a teacher is not a threat. It is an outlet. You have to do something which is impossible, be a mind reader, to determine intention. In children such a drawing is almost always just an outlet-- and a darn safe one too.

    Boys need to play fight, and boys need to play with knives and toy gun. Neither of which by themselves make someone marked for a life of crime or anti-social behavior.

    I have no easy answer, but sissifying our boys isn't it. Criminalizing child's play isn't it too.
    you're right Hopyard. I grew up playing cops/robbers, cowboys/indians, army, etc with other kids with toy guns in the late 70's & early 80's....but we didn't have school shootings or kids bringing guns to places they shouldn't, etc
    I think the answer is a multi-headed dragon
    first is parents not parenting, they send the kids to school and expect an 8 hour day with 5 to 7 different teachers (in high school) and admin to raise their children, then there is no consistency or even complete lack of discipline at doesn't work

    next is the morons that believe a gun is what kills people when in fact its the human that pulls the trigger that does the killing; the liberal media and anti gun groups have steadily increased idiocy and brainwashing of the masses, and then liberal legislators/judges and made new laws/case laws over the last 20-30 years that are against guns furthering the idea that guns are bad
    these combined with a few school shootings and the lack of immediate action taken to stop the threat has lead to changes in how these things are responded to (also included in this is terrorist attacks that have occurred in other countries at schools)

    Lots of people did not understand that at Columbine the standard procedure in 99% (if not 100%) of the country was for patrol to contain perimeter and wait for SWAT, thats what happened and a lot of kids died. Those departments got ripped for following their procedures. People asked, why didn't they do something?
    This incident combined with all the other school shootings have led to active shooter training in law enforcement, and a change in tactics, mindset, and procedures. Its all about stopping the threat. Which is what the officers in Brownsville did. They had info a person had a gun in a school and shots had been fired. They went in and stopped the threat. Some say we have "militarized" the police since we now have patrol carrying ARs and Level 4 vests in their cars. Its in reaction to these school shootings and dirtbags that have killed cops.

    I feel sorry for the parents from the standpoint they lost their child. Horrible.
    I feel sorry for the officers that, no matter how much they are justified, know they took the life of a teenager, and that it ended up being a BB gun. But they had to go with the info they knew at the time and they acted on it, as they, and all officers should.
    I speak from experience, in that at the time I saw that 12 year old drawing what I believed was a stainless S&W semi-auto based on my firearms knowledge and experience, and he had a 1000 yard stare looking at me as he was pulling it out of his pants even though I, a police officer, was drawing a gun from the holster, I could do nothing but discern that he was armed with a real gun and based on his demeanor/face at the time did not look like a normal 12 year old or just a kid playing army, etc. Every time I think about that incident 3 years ago (which is usually weekly) I thank God he dropped it when he did or I would be the officer in question on a story like this.

    This unfortunate incident is just one more in a list of things that have happened that are products of many things wrong with our society.
    Gun ownership is not one of them. There were no school shootings before just a few years ago, and this was after more and more gun restrictions were put into place.
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  6. #51
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Local radio in Houston has been following the story. The shooting is actually on audio tape. They played part of it on the air but not the part where shots are fired. The officers ordered him to either drop the weapon or put it on the floor TEN TIMES before firing. Medical examiner stated cause of death was two gunshots to the front of the torso. Dad says they shot him in the head. The head wound was described by the medical examiner as a laceration as a result of a fall.

    Dad wants JUSTICE!

    IMHO justice is what he got. What dad wants is a pay day.
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  7. #52
    Member Array joeyrh9's Avatar
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    Teen Killed by Police in Middle School

    Hello everyone, Check out the Link below and tell me what you think.

    Brownsville police kill teen at middle school - San Antonio Express-News

    I live in the town where this occurred. Brownsville has been in an uproar about this incident as many local folks feel police used excessive force. My opinion in the matter is that Police did what they had to do. The teen had what appeared to be a live firearm but in the end it turned out to be a pelet gun. Bottom line is, the pelet gun looked almost identical to a Glock. Police instructed the teenager to drop his weapon several times but he refused. The teen even made a comment during the stand off in which he said he was willing to die. Police shot the teen twice..once in the chest and once in the abdomen. My question is, am I wrong to say that the police did what they had to do. Many people are outraged because they feel excessive force was used. They would have wanted the police officers to have wounded the teen instead of 'taking him out'. I believe the police had no choice in the matter. Let me know what your opinions are.
    From where I stand, I believe I would have done the same thing those police officers did. My opinion however is the minority here in Brownsville TX.
    Remember as a rule of thumb in defensive carry...your intention is always to STOP....not to hurt, however; in a gun fight, its either me or them.....and Im sure as hell that it will NOT be me.
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  8. #53
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    They had a pic of the gun. It looked real enough to me. I would have to say that this was a clean shoot. I do not believe there was any blood lust on the officers part..
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  9. #54
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    Feb 2009
    Already a thread on this: student killed by police had a pellet gun
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

  10. #55
    Senior Member Array Spade115's Avatar
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    Im in La Joya Tx, and will be out that way January 15th

    I have to agree with you (so that will be two for sure in that area)

    I agree they did what was neccesary I do not beleive if they had wounded him, what if it had been a real gun and he still shot back. From my understanding (from what I have been told) if he was shot in the head. and that he assaulted someone prior to being shot.

    What I think is funny is that everytime someone gets in trouble in this area (RGV) they were "Always" good kids and never got a chance.
    When life gives you lemons, Open a lemonaid buisness.

  11. #56
    Member Array joeyrh9's Avatar
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    Nov 2009
    My belief is, you point a gun at someone, expect one to be pointed back. In todays report, the teen did not sustain a head would from a bullet. His head wound (gash) resulted from him falling down after being shot.

    I kind of have to keep my opinions to myself around here as people are hating on those that believe the police did what they had to do. The police also had to take into consideration the safety of other students. When the teen began running down the hallway, I think the police officers thought he might shoot someone in the school. They had not choice but to open fire to stop him. To me it is a clear cut situation...there is not grey area when making a decision to protect others.
    Remember as a rule of thumb in defensive carry...your intention is always to STOP....not to hurt, however; in a gun fight, its either me or them.....and Im sure as hell that it will NOT be me.
    -joey rh

  12. #57
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    Array HotGuns's Avatar
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    Thats one of those situations where you are danged if you do and danged if you dont.
    Inspector71 likes this.
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  13. #58
    Member Array DanDglassman's Avatar
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    Dec 2011
    "Air pistol that looks like real gun costs teen his life"

    I've got news for them... an air pistol is a REAL gun. It can kill too. Good shoot (albeit tragic).

  14. #59
    Senior Member Array Okemo's Avatar
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    I understand why you want to keep your thoughts to yourself. You have to live there. But eventually people in your town need to realize and REMEMBER Columbine. It's a whole new world since then. Any kid jackass enough to do what he did has nobody to blame except himself.

    Those who think that cops are or should be trained to 'wound' a criminal with a gun or 'shoot the gun out of his hand' are simply ignorant and watch too many 70's era cops shows.

    My general response when somebody says something ignorant about this type of incident is. "And what would you have done if you were the cop?" They generally can't form an answer that sounds plausible out loud.
    And you know I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view. -- John Prine (A Good Time)

  15. #60
    Distinguished Member Array Elk Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Gotta totally disagree with ya. How is the world coming at them to fast? I had TV growing up, they have TV. They have an XBOX, don't buy them M rated games. They get on the internet, tell them you have spyware on it and you will sometimes sit down with them and do a spot check (modern day version of looking in their closet for Playboys), don't like them hanging out on Facebook, twitter? (DO NOT LET THEM), don't like the "bad" kids he hangs out with, ya know what, he might be a "bad" kid so don't let him hang out them. Is the kid bored at home looking for something to do? I don't care if you work 2 jobs, when ya get home, turn the TV off at dinner and sit down as a family and TALK. Too many stupid things on TV, turn on a documentary and talk about it. Kids brain turning to mush (and the parents), sit down at the dinner table and pose a question for debate (politics, sports, music your kid likes vs what you like). You will learn things also. Kid wants to play a sport but can't afford it, then the parent might need to cut back on the cable bill, the iPhones, and that new 65 inch TV for the man cave. Instead of a new video game every month give the child a Kindle (not an iPad) and preload it with books.
    I think it is called parenting. The world is going to fast for the PARENTS to make decisions. Not the child. The parents are the ones leaving the kids behind.
    I couldn't agree with you more sounds you and I are on the same page concerning raising kids, but there are too many parents as you say that are not being parents. By the grace of God I was able to get three into their 20's, they are still in school and being productive members of society.

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