What if drugs went away? - Page 4

What if drugs went away?

This is a discussion on What if drugs went away? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by mascariot how about the part of the constitution that gives us the right to pursue happiness..... That part actually doesn't exist. You ...

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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mascariot View Post
    how about the part of the constitution that gives us the right to pursue happiness.....
    That part actually doesn't exist. You have confused the Declaration of Independence which is not part of our law with our
    constitution which is the foundation of our law.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson


  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by vandyatc View Post
    This is such a dangerous opinion.... It is wholly wrong, yet propagates and causes distrust in the system.
    Well that is your perspective as a practitioner, and as a beneficiary of the present system I suppose you will see the pluses.
    As a consumer, I see and experience the negatives.

    In my opinion, as a (former) practitioner, the initial care plan was correct. The "feeling better" was likely the virus running its course naturally over 5-10 days which coincides with day 2-3 of an antibiotic (or any other substance someone thinks will help like a supplement). However, small and unnecessary doses of antibiotics cause more resistant bugs etc.... Viruses are generally best left alone and treating the symptoms. Rarely is there an "anti-viral" that is effective (rarely, not never).
    The only issue here is whether or not the poster got to the doc within the window for a benefit from antivirals. If he was
    delayed, then the doc properly withheld them. And you are also correct that small and unnecessary doses of antibiotics
    are problematic. We have a huge problem with antibiotic misuse in our country, but frankly patients are the least of it. Agriculture, veterinary and physician misuse are larger problems.

    Now, I'll become unpopular here by saying this- but customers can't be patients...
    Patients are customers. Educated patients are educated consumers. You are selling a service. Get over it.
    You are no different from anyone else who sells a service to the public.

    Currently, there is no way to handle healthcare effectively in our system.
    If you start with such a premise, that nothing can be done effectively, that is the outcome you will get. That is the prediction you will make for any proposed change. [/quote]


    But when a doctor has to sell his services to people who have no clue about what he or she does and will judge good care as sub-par as the author above did then care givers give care that people think they want. This yields poor and improper care, high costs, and poor outcomes (such as we seem to have).
    Poor and improper care is a common outcome with today's system. At least if people had greater access to many
    medicines, the burden for poor care would be clearly on their own misjudgment, and the docs would be relieved of the blame for a bad outcome.

    The general public cannot manage their healthcare,
    This is not an absolute. I'm not saying a physician has no role. I'm saying that especially for folks with chronic
    conditions, or acute episodes of very common ailments, people can manage their own care. And if they can not,
    they can hire a physician.

    thus the need for physicians etc... Bottom line is, when you are a customer and not a patient you feel improperly empowered. Your physician treated you properly, and you aren't happy. But the issue is the customer thinks they were right and justified by the outcome, when that is the wrong conclusion.
    No insult intended, I'm actually pretty pro-physician, but the auto repair guy has the same problem. The real issue is something different from what you are emphasizing.

    Be careful with judgements and opinions like the above. They are part of the problem when believed.
    I would say the same for your opinion.

    You can have freedom and liberty all you want, but that also entitles you to be wrong sometimes...
    This is exactly the point I am making. Let people have more freedom and more responsibility concerning their health care.
    We actually already do a certain amount of that with certain services such as chiropractic and accupuncture, alternative therapies, and supplements, and many of the aforementioned perhaps could be legitimately argued should be illegal because
    these choices present opportunities for customers to screw up their own health by doing stupid stuff and getting stupid advice. So,
    as a country we already have one foot in the muck of hypocrisy here. We try to adhere to a middle ground which is unsatisfactory; the two options at the other ends would be to relegate 100% of health care to full control of physicians (which won't work) or give folks much more freedom to get their own lab tests run, get their own imaging done, and make their own
    choices.

    Here's an imperfect analogy, as all analogies tend to be imperfect. Vast numbers of people can't handle their own tax returns. They risk penalty by doing them on their own. Yet we leave the determination of whether to do it by yourself or hire a professional to each person's individual judgment. People are entitled to do stupid things as long as they don't harm others.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevy-SS View Post
    Pat Robertson Says Marijuana Use Should be Legal - http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/08/us...uana.html?_r=1 Interesting that a prominent conservative advocates some legalization.



    -
    Is marijuana a drug? I thought it was a weed.
    suntzu and msgt/ret like this.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    if drugs went away it would be like the stock market of the 1929..... a major crash and a lot of people killing them selfs
    And the down side?

    That was humor for those comedy impaired

  5. #50
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    So if illegal drugs like marijuana, cocaine, meth and heroin were legalized, where would the users of these newly legalized drugs get the funds to purchase them? These days most employers drug test everyone before hiring them so I'm assuming people that use these newly legalized drugs would be unemployable.
    Would the taxpayers subsidize unemployable drug users or will they have to continue their life of crime to purchase marijuana,cocaine, meth or whatever else they use do destroy their life as well as others.
    If you died today and stood in front of God and He asked you " Why should I let you into My Heaven?" what would you say?

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldmaster View Post
    So if illegal drugs like marijuana, cocaine, meth and heroin were legalized, where would the users of these newly legalized drugs get the funds to purchase them? These days most employers drug test everyone before hiring them so I'm assuming people that use these newly legalized drugs would be unemployable.
    Would the taxpayers subsidize unemployable drug users or will they have to continue their life of crime to purchase marijuana,cocaine, meth or whatever else they use do destroy their life as well as others.
    This is a whole other set of complex issues, drug testing. What is needed is impairment testing and
    performance evaluation. Employers aren't and shouldn't expect to be ancillary agents of the DEA. They aren't
    engaged in either a law enforcement role or a legitimate employment role, except for safety sensitive and special situation
    jobs.

    If hard drugs were made legal (and I don't actually favor that), the problem of drugs in the workplace would be ameliorated and changed simply to performance and impairment.

    We have a multi-billion dollar a year drug testing industry in this country. It has its lobbyists and its principled adherents,
    and they will fight anything which hampers their ability to earn money; just as any other special interest group would; including our distributors of weapons.
    Last edited by Hopyard; April 15th, 2012 at 06:22 PM. Reason: spelling fix
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yankeejib View Post
    Is marijuana a drug? I thought it was a weed.
    LOL, yeah man, I agree with you. But ask all the poor saps in jail and they will all certainly agree that our esteemed Gubment treats pot as the most dangerous "Schedule I Controlled Substance" (wow, that's a fear-inducing classification if there ever was one), and thus all pot smokers and dealers deserve harsh treatment and much time behind bars.

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    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yankeejib View Post
    Is marijuana a drug? I thought it was a weed.
    It is a natural product. The active agent is a component of plant tissue, a weed if you would prefer to call it that.
    The semantic games are totally silly. What should count is whether or not the stuff is beneficial or dangerous, and that
    should be weighed against the overall interests of society. Everyone will have their own opinion on what the balance should be, and I think few people think we have the balance right. Now, we could just execute anyone found with 1/4 ounce of the stuff,
    but even that horrific an approach won't make the stuff disappear. Indonesia has proven that point.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  9. #54
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    There actually is a cure for lack of a better term to or war on(at least some) drugs. I was reading an article a while back that said researchers had developed basically a vaccine that immunized people from certain drugs. Basically you smoke your rock and don't get high. There was much ethical debate as to when it became commercially available if it should be required for school children.
    One side arguing that you could wipe out large scale abuse (and associated crime) in a generation. Some were saying it should be administered to anyone incarcerated in the U.S. Others say that administering it to anyone but consenting adults would be an unconstitutional intrusion.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post

    Here's an imperfect analogy, as all analogies tend to be imperfect. Vast numbers of people can't handle their own tax returns. They risk penalty by doing them on their own. Yet we leave the determination of whether to do it by yourself or hire a professional to each person's individual judgment. People are entitled to do stupid things as long as they don't harm others.
    @noway- I think I misunderstood initially, and upon re-reading I see what you mean/meant. I also then retroactively agree with your assertation and evaluation.

    @Hopyard- as above, I was a little heavy handed in my response. I do think that you have to go fully physician controlled universal care, or fully cash pay individually managed. Riding in the middle is what we have now. We have a single pay system mixed with insurance, and they set the rules (rather poorly I might add). I like the tax analogy and don't care if a person cares for them self poorly, so long as it doesn't affect me negatively (I.e. vaccinations, etc). Also, I defend the physicians. I don't like when patients blame physicians for poor outcomes. It may occasionally be their fault, but it as much as I feel like I hear the old "he doesn't know what he's doing" response. Maybe I'm just too sensitive...

    Good discussion, and sorry for derailing the OP's discussion. Thanks all!

  11. #56
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    Question Civil Liberties Limited?

    Would they quit crime and get legit jobs, suddenly becoming contributing members of society? Or would they simply turn to another type of crime? Something more violent perhaps?
    No, No, Yes, and Maybe

    One side arguing that you could wipe out large scale abuse (and associated crime) in a generation. Some were saying it should be administered to anyone incarcerated in the U.S. Others say that administering it to anyone but consenting adults would be an unconstitutional intrusion.
    Reminds me of a Kurt Vonnegut short story Welcome to the Monkey House.


    The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins. ― The Journals of Kierkegaard

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    There actually is a cure for lack of a better term to or war on(at least some) drugs. I was reading an article a while back that said researchers had developed basically a vaccine that immunized people from certain drugs. Basically you smoke your rock and don't get high. There was much ethical debate as to when it became commercially available if it should be required for school children.
    One side arguing that you could wipe out large scale abuse (and associated crime) in a generation. Some were saying it should be administered to anyone incarcerated in the U.S. Others say that administering it to anyone but consenting adults would be an unconstitutional intrusion.
    Thank you for posting that. Interesting, and it would pose many ethical problems.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Immunizing your brain against chemicals that mimick your own body's natural chemicals. I'm sure there can't be any downside to that... And the argument that there will be an increase in drug use if drugs are legalized has been proven patently false again and again by this mythical thing called real life data. Is the only thing keeping you from shooting up heroin the law? If crack is legalized are you gonna go score yourself a nice rock? The law doesn't seem to be preventing anyone who is inclined from using. But it is creating this black hole of public debt and young bodies to put through College For Criminals.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." -Obligatory Founding Father Quote

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    Stopping drugs is like trying to contain a fart once it escapes
    Quote Originally Posted by neilluken View Post
    I totally agree with you.
    But trying to stop it can be harmful also. It is a natural thing.

  15. #60
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    If drugs went away it would mean Keith Richards took em all. Then everyone would take turns smoking Keith Richards.
    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
    - Roy Batty

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