Mexico's Calderon Posts Gun-Free Zone

This is a discussion on Mexico's Calderon Posts Gun-Free Zone within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Harryball I agree with you on the war on drugs. IMO the reason most LEOs want it to continue, is there jobs. ...

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  1. #31
    Senior Member Array Landric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    I agree with you on the war on drugs. IMO the reason most LEOs want it to continue, is there jobs. Imagine the war on drugs stopping. How many officers from the feds on down would not have a job to do...
    I don't think so, there might be some folks in the federal alphabet soup agencies that would loose their jobs if drugs were all legalized, but I wouldn't expect anyone on a state or local LE level to. Anyone who thinks our current drug dealers are suddenly going to get real jobs if drugs are legal are fooling themselves. People who are criminals are criminals, they will just find some other crime to engage in. Also, legal drugs will not stop drug addicts from engaging in the crimes they engage in now to get drugs. Assuming drugs are cheaper they might well not have to steal as much, but they will still steal.

    Have no illusions, legalizing drugs will not result in a sudden Utopian society, it will just mean that we stop wasting time, money, and lives on fighting a war we cannot win. There will still be plenty of criminals to deal with, and hopefully more space in prisons to lock them up for a long time. I think people have an absolute right to waste their lives as drug addicts if they want to, but I also don't think they should be allowed any public assistance in the matter, other than treatment for their addicition if they want it.

    This debate always produces unrealistic ideas from people who are pro-legalization about what will happen. It seems to be much like the people who think that a bad economy means more crime. God bless you if you think that, it probably means you have a job and a set of moral values. The reality is that I arrest the same deadbeats whether the economy is good or bad. I have never seen a upturn in criminal behavior among people who previously were contributing members of society when the economy took a dump. It is always the same deadbeats, and they are not employed anyway, no matter how the economy is doing. Most of them are also drug users. Most of them will always be worthless and drugs being legal or illegal won't change that.
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I just ran across this, and didn't find it posted anywhere else. Apologies if it is a double post.
    Mexico Unveils ‘No More Weapons!’ Sign Made Of Firearms Along US Border CBS Houston
    Did anyone do a 'close up' view of that sign?
    Amazing...
    It's all made with Taurus firearms...go figure!
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  4. #33
    Member Array RichB70's Avatar
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    The country of Singapore executes drug dealers "all of them" drug problem very well under control.



    Rich

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landric View Post
    ...
    This debate always produces unrealistic ideas from people who are pro-legalization about what will happen. It seems to be much like the people who think that a bad economy means more crime. God bless you if you think that, it probably means you have a job and a set of moral values. The reality is that I arrest the same deadbeats whether the economy is good or bad. I have never seen a upturn in criminal behavior among people who previously were contributing members of society when the economy took a dump. It is always the same deadbeats, and they are not employed anyway, no matter how the economy is doing. Most of them are also drug users. Most of them will always be worthless and drugs being legal or illegal won't change that.
    Interesting feedback, Landric. Thanks for that.
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  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichB70 View Post
    The country of Singapore executes drug dealers "all of them" drug problem very well under control.

    Rich
    Yes, and unlawful discharge of firearms is also a hanging offense, even if accidental. Not a problem, tho, since private gun ownership occurs at a rate of .5 guns per 100 people, which ranks it at 168th out of 178 countries world-wide.
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    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    The war on drugs is not a war. It is just a program. In war you only have to obey the laws of war, not the constitution. You don't arrest the enemy, you kill them. I have no problem with either legalizing drugs and strictly prosecuting related offenses (theft, driving under the influence etc.) Or prosecuting this "war"as a real war with dealers and users being treated as enemy combatants who are not in uniform. Either way is better than what is going on now.
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    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Just think, as soon as drugs are legal drug dealer robberies like this will disappear. Yup. Career armed robbers will then switch to getting jobs and buying drugs from the neighborhood drug store, instead of continuing their lifelong criminal oriented lifestyle:

    Suspects nabbed in violent taking of rare coins | Washington Examiner

    Lynch and a woman went to the home in the 1600 block of Irving Street NW in Mount Pleasant on Dec. 17 under the auspices of buying some marijuana. Lynch had purchased pot at the residence in the past.

    Within a matter of minutes of their arrival on the 17th, though, Lynch pulled out a black handgun and demanded that the victim tell him where the money and drugs were located.
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  9. #38
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    sign is as worthless as Calderon is.....I agree with the part about him taking a flying leap,
    this jackwagon wouldn't know the true cause of the problems or what to do about the cartels/guns/drugs if it was tattooed inside his eyelids

    as for the related drug discussion.....
    First, I have to say I completely understand where people are coming from on both sides of this issue. At times its emotionally charged and some people tend to get out of hand when discussing it. I don't wish that to happen here.

    I would love for our fed,county,local tax dollars to be spent on other things or be back in our pockets because its not needed. Unfortunately, I get to see first hand the effects of drug use/dealing every day I go to work. Sometimes its the user that kills themselves, kills/injures others, or they steal/damage things the victims worked hard to pay for (the old argument that drug use is victimless crime is complete hogwash), victim is forced to pay out of pocket or file on insurance....which can make their rates as well as all of ours in the same county increase.
    Sometimes its the 6 year old little girl that gets abused/neglected because her parents are spending money on dope instead of taking care of their kids (one of many true stories of calls I've had to handle....sickening). Its always said we can't legislate morality, and I understand to a certain point. But are we as a society just supposed to roll over and let whatever happens happen, and the innocent people get to suffer for it? I think not. I think those that harm our society need to be punished

    I agree Landric, the term militarization of LEOs is way over used by people wanting to cut use of money fighting the drug/drug-related issues, We will always need SWAT, and patrol officers like me outfitted with heavy vests/rifles. I use both of these and not one time has it been because I was on a drug raid, and as a side note we have to buy our own rifles/accessories.

    next, also as a cop, I would like to put my $.02 in...not to argue, but to throw in for discussion....
    we do fuel the problem with our drug appetite here in the U.S. I think we all have to start by answering a question: if we legalize drugs will that appetite increase or decrease (with it legal do you think there will be more people trying it now)?
    I think it will increase, I think we'll have more people trying drugs = more addicts = more people needing more money from somewhere to pay for their habit = increase in other related crimes.

    Spending more money on educating our kids equating to making better choices instead of spending $$$ on combating drugs....well, we spend money on DARE/anti-drug programs now and kids still make the choice to get involved with drugs. If they are legalized, will more or less kids try them? I think more, just like more adults will do it since its legal.

    Which brings me to my next observation:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Drug abuse kills around 20k people in this country each year compared to over 100k who die from alcohol-related causes. Both pale in comparison to nicotine-related deaths which number over 400k. So, with legal behaviors killing about twenty-five times as many each years as the illegal ones, the drug war seems very ill-advised, ..............People who are drawn to addictive behaviors are drawn regardless of legality, as demonstrated during the Prohibition Era.
    If we follow the logic presented by these stats another way, it seems to me that if we legalize drugs, like alcohol and tobacco are in this example, the number of people killed each year by drugs will increase also....more people use them. I honestly do not think there is any way the number of new addicts will not increase if we legalize it. Sure we could cut out the $$$ spent on catching drugs, dealers, prosecutions, incarcerations, etc....but what about the after effects? By this I mean, we'll have more people using drugs....they're now legal, why not smoke/snort/eat whatever, its just like cigs or beer now? So we'll still have the addicts we had before, still have the other related crimes (theft, DUI-narcotics, etc), but now we'll have more people trying drugs since they're legal. I see this as a problem, not something that is better.
    Also, I do not believe the cartels, and the gangs here in the U.S. will all of sudden start growing bananas and peanuts to sell for money to fund their activities. They will always be dirtbags and won't like the fact that they now have competition with being legal. Also....if its legal, then won't we be allowing the stuff in across the border as other legally traded goods....and won't the cartels still be growing/making it? So they won't be going away.

    The example of prohibition and the related gangs & crime world making/selling alcohol is always used for comparison, and I understand that (and I've read books and info on prohibition). However, look at the number of people, both the drinkers and the innocent victims that have had their lives taken with the explosion of alcohol use we've had in this country since then. I dread legalized drugs doing the same. The criminals that were the problem during prohibition didn't go away when it was repealed, they just turned to other crimes.

    If we are truly going to combat drugs and the related crimes, such as I listed above and Landric mentioned, then the gloves need to come off. Piddly bail amounts by judges, piddly plea deals by prosecutors to pad their conviction stats, and piddly sentences all send the wrong message. Our federal government not doing its constitutionally mandated job to protect our borders sends just as bad of a message. The cartels should be scared to death to send one joint or step foot in the U.S. but we all know thats not anywhere close to happening.

    (sorry for being long-winded, guess I was just in the mood)
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  10. #39
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    Well said 64zebra!

    Tougher, swifter penalties for crimes is a start. Execute the murderers and make incarceration tougher, they can pick up their rights when they get the rest of their belongings after completing their sentence.

    Like you said legalizing these drugs will not rid us of dealers, abusers, cartels, and those willing to kill for their habit. We still have underage drinking and smoking and people still getting alcohol and tobacco illegally.
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  11. #40
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    64zebra, there are a couple things wrong with your logic. The drug prevention strategies you described are all abstinence-only oriented, and do not emphasize responsible behaviors or the imparting of factual information. Anybody who argues that pot and meth are equally dangerous, for example, simply will not be taken seriously by their target audience. Making the penalties similar arguably encourage the promotion of the harder, more addictive substances. Increasing the penalties simply attracts a rougher, more criminally-inclined element, and increases the financial rewards. As for your assertion about cigarettes, long-legal and heavily promoted, per capita consumption in the US is at an all-time low. Why? Because of the distribution of accurate information and the promotion of healthy, responsible behaviors, things entirely lacking in this country's long and failed war on drugs.
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  12. #41
    Senior Member Array Landric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    64zebra, there are a couple things wrong with your logic. The drug prevention strategies you described are all abstinence-only oriented, and do not emphasize responsible behaviors or the imparting of factual information. Anybody who argues that pot and meth are equally dangerous, for example, simply will not be taken seriously by their target audience. Making the penalties similar arguably encourage the promotion of the harder, more addictive substances. Increasing the penalties simply attracts a rougher, more criminally-inclined element, and increases the financial rewards. As for your assertion about cigarettes, long-legal and heavily promoted, per capita consumption in the US is at an all-time low. Why? Because of the distribution of accurate information and the promotion of healthy, responsible behaviors, things entirely lacking in this country's long and failed war on drugs.
    Mike, don't get me wrong, I agree that drugs should be legalized. However, there is no responsible way to use crack, meth, PCP, LSD, Heroine, etc. The only reasonable course of action, if one wants to be a contributing member of society and not a deadbeat drug addict, is abstinence. That is the only thing we should be teaching kids. Is there a responsible way to drink or use marijuana. Sure, I suppose there is, and I would have no problem with acknowledging that in the lesson plan. However, there are also plenty of people wasting their lives on alcohol and marijuana, so nothing is sure there either.

    I think we would likely see an upswing in users, at least initially, if drugs were legalized. I think over time the numbers would drop off, and with the exception of marijuana, might drop off below current levels. At any rate what we are doing now isn't working, and it is at least worth a try. I am not in favor of suspending our constitution to fight drugs in the United States. On the other hand, if we want to bomb the cartels in their own countries back to the stone age (not that far of a trip I suspect), then that is fine with me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    64zebra, there are a couple things wrong with your logic. The drug prevention strategies you described are all abstinence-only oriented, and do not emphasize responsible behaviors or the imparting of factual information. Anybody who argues that pot and meth are equally dangerous, for example, simply will not be taken seriously by their target audience. Making the penalties similar arguably encourage the promotion of the harder, more addictive substances. Increasing the penalties simply attracts a rougher, more criminally-inclined element, and increases the financial rewards. As for your assertion about cigarettes, long-legal and heavily promoted, per capita consumption in the US is at an all-time low. Why? Because of the distribution of accurate information and the promotion of healthy, responsible behaviors, things entirely lacking in this country's long and failed war on drugs.
    as Landric said, there is no way to responsibly use meth, crack, coke, lsd, pcp, or any other drugs
    I've seen plenty of people commit serious crimes on alcohol, prescrip meds, and marijuana.....and yes marijuana is a stepping stone for the others, people argue this til their blue in the face but I talk to people that are on meth, crack, coke quite regularly and almost all of them say they started with marijuana, but all that can be argued forever I suppose

    and I'm not saying the punishments for all levels of drugs should be the same, I don't know why you included that in your reply, if I implied that it wasn't my intention, even so...I don't think that would encourage people to use the other drugs, doesn't make any sense to me

    the drug prevention strategies I talked about do promote abstinence...thats the whole idea....you know the whole appetite thing

    and what part of the dare programs, etc do not impart factual information? or am I misunderstanding that part of your sentence

    my assertion about cigs was based on your stat about the deaths, nothing more, nothing less
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