Contract police forces? - Page 3

Contract police forces?

This is a discussion on Contract police forces? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by oneshot Are these gonna be the same guys that replaced my garbageman, who was an employee of the city, lived in the ...

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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    Are these gonna be the same guys that replaced my garbageman, who was an employee of the city, lived in the community, was pretty conscientious for the most part, didn't leave a mess, didn't have a pony tail/body art, & looking like he just got paroled from the state pen,
    and was only trying to make a decent living, raise a family and live the American Dream?

    When in H.E. Double Hockey Sticks are people and politicians in this country gonna give more of a damn about their fellow Americans, than saving a few bucks, then giving city council a raise, and city vehicles with a gas card, etc, etc,,
    Folks, we are in the handbasket, hows the ride???
    "Scuse me while I go throw up in my mouth, I can't take this stupidity anymore.
    What is the problem with a ponytail and body art? How is that even relevant to this discussion?


  2. #32
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    Well gents I have be a contractor for over 6 years now and have never had my ethics, morals or patriotism questioned before.

    Whether you have a regular police department or a contracted department it still would fall back to the people they hire. Most of the time the contractor is better trained and has more experience than other candidates. No matter who it is if they have no morals and ethics to begin with it doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

    To those who would say that you could tell them to pound sand that would be incorrect they would not be private security but would be fully certified LEO's with all the powers that come with it granted by the state. The city/municipality would have ultimate control and the contractor would want to avoid problems in order to keep the contract.

    Just as others have stated many places already contract out garbage, sewer, ambulance or have private companies in their place. The problem with private companies is the city/municipality has no control over them, they are a business operating within their city as long as they have the proper permits their is nothing they can do.

    Whether you like it or not contractors are here to stay and our role will increase as time goes on.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by varob View Post
    Contracting is all around us. Do you see your city/ate doing the road construction around your area. No. It's some private company.

    75% of homes in the US are protected by Volunteer Fire Dept. and EMS. There operating revenue is mostly generated by donations.

    Most Americans have had to learn to get by with less, why can't these cities/towns do it.
    Exactly. This is why we should disband the US military and hire private military contractors. We can do the same for the intelligence agencies. And say good bye to the VA hospitals because privatization can do it better. The same with private roads, we can just make every road a toll road and sell it to a corporation. Right?
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Well gents I have be a contractor for over 6 years now and have never had my ethics, morals or patriotism questioned before.

    Whether you have a regular police department or a contracted department it still would fall back to the people they hire. Most of the time the contractor is better trained and has more experience than other candidates. No matter who it is if they have no morals and ethics to begin with it doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

    To those who would say that you could tell them to pound sand that would be incorrect they would not be private security but would be fully certified LEO's with all the powers that come with it granted by the state. The city/municipality would have ultimate control and the contractor would want to avoid problems in order to keep the contract.

    Just as others have stated many places already contract out garbage, sewer, ambulance or have private companies in their place. The problem with private companies is the city/municipality has no control over them, they are a business operating within their city as long as they have the proper permits their is nothing they can do.

    Whether you like it or not contractors are here to stay and our role will increase as time goes on.
    I respect your opinion but the problem with private companies in regards to policing, is that policing involves potentially taking away someones rights and using the judicial system to enforce their judgment. I think this is a state power and should never be delegated to a private group. The same with national defense as can a private group place their own interests over that of the nation for more profit? It happens all of the time. I think with garbage, water, and some civil services it is not so important, though I myself would rather the state do them.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyBunny View Post
    On my side of the border, the province of British Columbia just renewed a 20 year contract for the RCMP to police any jurisdictions without their own PD (Most of BC).

    The municipality of Esquimalt (suburb of Victoria) disbanded their PD a few years back and contracted with Victoria PD to police their area. They are now contemplating not renewing the contract and going with the RCMP.

    Contracting out does not necessarily mean privatization.
    I think though most commonly people mean a private corporation and not another government agency or level of government.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by rambosky View Post
    Ya, they can get Blackwater contractors.
    Rumor has it Gecko45 is polishing his badge and considering coming out of retirement.
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    It's already being looked at by North Las Vegas because if budget constraints.

    http://m.8newsnow.com/wap/news/text....tle=Local+News
    Nevada CFP
    Utah CFP

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Well gents I have be a contractor ....

    Most of the time the contractor is better trained and has more experience than other candidates..
    You have not said in what area of work you contract, or with what entities. It seems highly unlikely that a private contractor
    would spend the money necessary on training, or train above minimums, the way most large police departments do, or the way
    most professional fire departments do.

    Contracting out is just shifting who does the work, but if it needs to cost x amount of money to get a job done well, giving that
    job to someone who low-balls a bid and takes a profit, can't result in anything but poorer quality work or less work.
    oneshot likes this.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  9. #39
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    I am not a KBR combat plumber. I am a Private Military Contractor who has been working armed in the sandboxes of the world for over 6 years now.

    Afghanistan I was contracted to Department of State as a Police Advisor and Trainer for the Afghan National Police. We taught a variety of topics from Personal Security, Firearms, Afghan Constitutional Law to Drug Interdiction. I started off in Kabul teaching and writing lesson plans, policy and procedures to be used. I then took my team and spent the next 15 months in the southern provinces of Helmond, Kandahar and Uruzgan attached to the 3rd and 7th SFG teaching those subjects and advising local forces along with the Dutch, British, Canadian, Romanian and Australian Armies and SF Units.

    This is one of the PSD teams that I was with. This was taken at the Kabul International Airport. The helicopter in the background is an Mi-26 Hip, the largest transport helicopter in the world as far as I know. We used these Mi-8 Hips and vintage Hueys. Travel in Kabul at this time, and still is, could be a bit tricky. There were few good roads so you did not have much choice as to your routes.



    This is from Uruzgan Province. We assisted the locals in arresting/confiscating 10,000 pounds of Hashish. The bundle in the background burning is about 400 pounds worth. My partner in crime is also a former Marine and Police Officer. When the fighting became to intense for the Police to come to us we would fly out to their regions "A team" camp and teach from there.



    The contracts I have worked on including Kuwait (DOD) and Iraq (DOD and DOS) standards were pretty stiff just to be considered for the contract. Afghanistan required 8 years as a trainer or instructor with all credentials current, then you had to go to three weeks in Virginia at the Crucible/Kelly McCann and his cadre of SF and Active Duty Marine Instructors. Only about 40% made it through the testing, evaluations, firearms and the PT tests. Here in Iraq I am a trainer on another DOS/OSCI (Office of Security Cooperation-Iraq) which recently switched over from the DOD when the military left or most of them anyway.
    I came to Iraq as a Medical Officer, I was an LPN in the Army National Guard, and worked my way up so to speak to the Site Security Manager for several camps throughout Iraq. You have to have a unique skillset to work on these contracts. At one time I was the Medical Officer, Operations Officer and Armorer at the same time. No more money just more work.
    The smallest camp I was on was a COP (Combat Outpost). A 100 or so soldiers and 50 contractors which was located three clicks from Iran. The camp was destroyed by IRAM's and taking the lives of soldiers and other contractors who were friends of mine, the day after I turned over security to the Army Unit there just as they completed the handover to the Iraqi Army.
    The largest is where I am at now a COS (Contingency Operating Station) in Northern Iraq almost to Kurdistan. At it's peak housed and maintained several thousand Airmen and Soldiers securing the city of Kirkuk and the Airbase located here. I was the Site Security Manager here for 300 guards, K-9's, US Supervisors and 11 miles of perimeter and the only airfield in the area. At it's peak we received 94 rockets in a month, now we only get a couple a week.

    Standards can be set as high or as low as a city/government or whomever would want them to be. Most of the time the current employees if they meet the standards would be transitioned over to the new contract. Please keep in mind that one of the things a company does is find people whom are already trained to a high standard, most of the time higher than what is there, and they bring them in and simply add to the training they already have. In most cases the incoming individuals will gel as a team in a very short time without any further training if they have to but we also train on our own to a higher standard DOS required or not.

    Yes the money paid is good but the risk is high but you get what you pay for.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    I am not a KBR combat plumber. I am a Private Military Contractor who has been working armed in the sandboxes of the world for over 6 years now.

    Afghanistan I was contracted to Department of State as a Police Advisor and Trainer for the Afghan National Police. We taught a variety of topics from Personal Security, Firearms, Afghan Constitutional Law to Drug Interdiction. I started off in Kabul teaching and writing lesson plans, policy and procedures to be used. I then took my team and spent the next 15 months in the southern provinces of Helmond, Kandahar and Uruzgan attached to the 3rd and 7th SFG teaching those subjects and advising local forces along with the Dutch, British, Canadian, Romanian and Australian Armies and SF Units.

    This is one of the PSD teams that I was with. This was taken at the Kabul International Airport. The helicopter in the background is an Mi-26 Hip, the largest transport helicopter in the world as far as I know. We used these Mi-8 Hips and vintage Hueys. Travel in Kabul at this time, and still is, could be a bit tricky. There were few good roads so you did not have much choice as to your routes.



    This is from Uruzgan Province. We assisted the locals in arresting/confiscating 10,000 pounds of Hashish. The bundle in the background burning is about 400 pounds worth. My partner in crime is also a former Marine and Police Officer. When the fighting became to intense for the Police to come to us we would fly out to their regions "A team" camp and teach from there.



    The contracts I have worked on including Kuwait (DOD) and Iraq (DOD and DOS) standards were pretty stiff just to be considered for the contract. Afghanistan required 8 years as a trainer or instructor with all credentials current, then you had to go to three weeks in Virginia at the Crucible/Kelly McCann and his cadre of SF and Active Duty Marine Instructors. Only about 40% made it through the testing, evaluations, firearms and the PT tests. Here in Iraq I am a trainer on another DOS/OSCI (Office of Security Cooperation-Iraq) which recently switched over from the DOD when the military left or most of them anyway.
    I came to Iraq as a Medical Officer, I was an LPN in the Army National Guard, and worked my way up so to speak to the Site Security Manager for several camps throughout Iraq. You have to have a unique skillset to work on these contracts. At one time I was the Medical Officer, Operations Officer and Armorer at the same time. No more money just more work.
    The smallest camp I was on was a COP (Combat Outpost). A 100 or so soldiers and 50 contractors which was located three clicks from Iran. The camp was destroyed by IRAM's and taking the lives of soldiers and other contractors who were friends of mine, the day after I turned over security to the Army Unit there just as they completed the handover to the Iraqi Army.
    The largest is where I am at now a COS (Contingency Operating Station) in Northern Iraq almost to Kurdistan. At it's peak housed and maintained several thousand Airmen and Soldiers securing the city of Kirkuk and the Airbase located here. I was the Site Security Manager here for 300 guards, K-9's, US Supervisors and 11 miles of perimeter and the only airfield in the area. At it's peak we received 94 rockets in a month, now we only get a couple a week.

    Standards can be set as high or as low as a city/government or whomever would want them to be. Most of the time the current employees if they meet the standards would be transitioned over to the new contract. Please keep in mind that one of the things a company does is find people whom are already trained to a high standard, most of the time higher than what is there, and they bring them in and simply add to the training they already have. In most cases the incoming individuals will gel as a team in a very short time without any further training if they have to but we also train on our own to a higher standard DOS required or not.

    Yes the money paid is good but the risk is high but you get what you pay for.
    As you well know, this particular use of contractors has been highly controversial for a variety of good reasons.

    One of these is it creates a disincentive for re-enlistments, thus raising the government's overall cost of maintaining
    an army.

    In any case, what you are doing is a specialty job, not normally undertaken by the government to be done with
    its own servicemen or its own employees. I don't think it compares well with the civilian privatization of garbage collection,
    water system operation, ambulance and EMS services, to list a few.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  11. #41
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    You've made my point for me tacman.

    Where do these private contracting organizations get their employees?

    The recruit them away from government service after the government has spent a lot of time and money training them.

    How are they then employed?

    The do the job that the government trained them to do only now at approximately 3 x the cost that the government incurred when they actually worked for the government.

    Pure and simple corruption from the top down.

    I can't blame an operator for taking a job that pays like that, I'm sure the pay and benefits are a lot better than you received previously

    I do however hold nothing but the deepest contempt for the entire system of corruption and cronyism that makes this possible
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  12. #42
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    My old department was using contract personnel for a few years before I left. To lower the overall personnel costs they paid a number of senior officers retire early then come back for up to two years as contract workers. Their certifications were all current, and by "retiring" them early the county was saving 2% per year on their pensions for the rest of their lives. As contractors they received straight pay and no benefits. They did not need health coverage as they already had that as part of their retirement.
    This cost the county $0 in additional training. In fact because enough officers signed up they were able to run fewer academy classes for new recruits during that two years. This meant they were also not paying for two recruit classes worth of union benefits (health, dental, pension annual leave, sick leave etc.) for two years.

    The actual cost per officer of this program (including buyout money) was about half of what it would have cost to just continue as they had been doing before.
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  13. #43
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    Hopyard you are right I work in a speciality so to speak but my point was that this pool of trained persons are where the companies could/would recruit from or from the employees already there. As far as encentives for reenlistments the armed forces are cutting back in a huge way so what jobs are they coming home to? The world is full of shooters now, you have to have a specific skillset that is needed by a company or contract to even be considered.

    Many of these contracts DOS and DOD are being outsourced anyway. I compete for my job with Brits, Scots, Romanians and South Africans whom they can hire at half my salary. The advantage I have is I have a US Security Clearance which they cannot get, they can get a NATO clearance but it is not accepted.
    One of the main incentives is the tax status or being an Expat. The majority of your salary is tax exempt. One of the drawbacks is you have to stay out of CONUS for 335 days in a one year period. That plays hell on the homelife.

    MCP gave the perfect example. In these cash strapped times it makes perfect monetary sense to use contractors in that situation or stop the services altogether because they simply can't pay them.

    WD you have to realize that many of the guys here are retired or were not going to reenlist anyways. Many a straight leg grunt used his GI bill or his savings to pay for a PSD school in the UK, Israel or South Africa just to be considered. I am not saying that guys don't network while still in then simply do not reenlist and go to contracting that happens. Again skillset, skillset, skillset.
    Many contractors here take a leave of absence from their jobs to work for 6 months or so and then go right back to the department or S.O. they worked for. Not every SF type is a lifer. They enlist go to the schools and do a fantastic job but when they have gained what they want they simply leave to go on to something better. Why do you think in order to be a pilot you have to sign up for 6 years or more? They know many are not going to stay. They get the training, do their job, pay their debt of service to the government and go on to fly a plane for Jet Blue.

    In regards to your comment about they simply go back to doing the same job but at three times the salary, not hardly. As an example the US military nor it allies can teach a recognized civilian law enforcement organization it is against International Law. They must be taught by civilian LEO's. Now in these countries Police is simply a word. They carry belt fed PKM's, RPG's and other heavy weapons and engage the insurgents but they also do standard police work.

    I had military trainers on my team but and they could teach the police subjects but I had to sign off on whatever they taught. We were monitored closely by international organizations constantly. I hate to say it but the basic soldier while good at his job probably does not have the specific education or practical knowledge of a 10 year street cop.

    Why does everything have to be corrupt? An example. You hire 10 contractors to pull convoy security and pay them whatever cash with no healthcare, insurance or benefits. You have the same 10 soldiers to do the job, but wait! For those 10 soldiers you now have to have command and control, support troops, medical, logistics, finance, mechanics for the vehicles, dental care, chaplains, retirement so now you are up to 50 soldiers and triple the cost. If one gets hurt now you have another set of costs.

    It is all about what saves the most money in the long run. Now I am saying this from a security standpoint not the plumbers, food workers, supply, fuel, equipment and so on that there has been coruption, fraud, waste and abuse on. There is a time when profit margin and greed become so intertwined that you cannot tell the difference anymore.

    Expat's. Loved by some. Hated by many. Needed by all.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    My old department was using contract personnel for a few years before I left. To lower the overall personnel costs they paid a number of senior officers retire early then come back for up to two years as contract workers. Their certifications were all current, and by "retiring" them early the county was saving 2% per year on their pensions for the rest of their lives. As contractors they received straight pay and no benefits. They did not need health coverage as they already had that as part of their retirement.
    This cost the county $0 in additional training. In fact because enough officers signed up they were able to run fewer academy classes for new recruits during that two years. This meant they were also not paying for two recruit classes worth of union benefits (health, dental, pension annual leave, sick leave etc.) for two years.

    The actual cost per officer of this program (including buyout money) was about half of what it would have cost to just continue as they had been doing before.
    I think you are describing a fairly special situation, re-employment of annuitants; though it was done on a contract basis.
    This isn't the same thing as bidding out a governmental function to a privately held company which then goes out
    and hires people to replace the on-board people doing the work.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    It is all about what saves the most money in the long run.
    When privatizing or contracting is in fact all about what saves money, especially in the long run, while keeping a quality
    service, I don't object. I do however think that in very many instances the savings are illusions, the quality suffers,
    and tax payer money is diverted to the pockets of some rich influential dude who was able to pull a fast one because of connections.

    I also think that there are core functions which must remain under democratic control, through elected officials,
    and I think police, fire, corrections, road planning and design (not actual construction), are examples of such.

    Just food for thought. A great deal of our "justice" system has been privatized. All those arbitration agreements
    folks get forced to enter into with their brokers, their banks, their insurance companies, their IT providers,
    and many others remove justice from where it belongs, the regular courts, to private arbitrators. This has not
    gone well for consumers. It has lightened the load of the regular courts, but the system is generally thought to be one
    sided with the arbitrators beholden to some extent to the companies which write the contracts in the first place.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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