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Contract police forces?

8K views 79 replies 33 participants last post by  Nightflyer 
#1 ·
I'm going to predict something here. Contract police forces in the near future. Let's face it.....states, counties, and cities are running out of funds to where services are compromised and the employed law enforcement are asked to pay more for benefits, or do away with benefits, cut back on hours, etc.......... In the next few years I figure contract police forces will become reality. Still not much help on the spot for the common victim. What do you think?
 
#42 ·
My old department was using contract personnel for a few years before I left. To lower the overall personnel costs they paid a number of senior officers retire early then come back for up to two years as contract workers. Their certifications were all current, and by "retiring" them early the county was saving 2% per year on their pensions for the rest of their lives. As contractors they received straight pay and no benefits. They did not need health coverage as they already had that as part of their retirement.
This cost the county $0 in additional training. In fact because enough officers signed up they were able to run fewer academy classes for new recruits during that two years. This meant they were also not paying for two recruit classes worth of union benefits (health, dental, pension annual leave, sick leave etc.) for two years.

The actual cost per officer of this program (including buyout money) was about half of what it would have cost to just continue as they had been doing before.
 
#44 ·
I think you are describing a fairly special situation, re-employment of annuitants; though it was done on a contract basis.
This isn't the same thing as bidding out a governmental function to a privately held company which then goes out
and hires people to replace the on-board people doing the work.
 
#43 ·
Hopyard you are right I work in a speciality so to speak but my point was that this pool of trained persons are where the companies could/would recruit from or from the employees already there. As far as encentives for reenlistments the armed forces are cutting back in a huge way so what jobs are they coming home to? The world is full of shooters now, you have to have a specific skillset that is needed by a company or contract to even be considered.

Many of these contracts DOS and DOD are being outsourced anyway. I compete for my job with Brits, Scots, Romanians and South Africans whom they can hire at half my salary. The advantage I have is I have a US Security Clearance which they cannot get, they can get a NATO clearance but it is not accepted.
One of the main incentives is the tax status or being an Expat. The majority of your salary is tax exempt. One of the drawbacks is you have to stay out of CONUS for 335 days in a one year period. That plays hell on the homelife.

MCP gave the perfect example. In these cash strapped times it makes perfect monetary sense to use contractors in that situation or stop the services altogether because they simply can't pay them.

WD you have to realize that many of the guys here are retired or were not going to reenlist anyways. Many a straight leg grunt used his GI bill or his savings to pay for a PSD school in the UK, Israel or South Africa just to be considered. I am not saying that guys don't network while still in then simply do not reenlist and go to contracting that happens. Again skillset, skillset, skillset.
Many contractors here take a leave of absence from their jobs to work for 6 months or so and then go right back to the department or S.O. they worked for. Not every SF type is a lifer. They enlist go to the schools and do a fantastic job but when they have gained what they want they simply leave to go on to something better. Why do you think in order to be a pilot you have to sign up for 6 years or more? They know many are not going to stay. They get the training, do their job, pay their debt of service to the government and go on to fly a plane for Jet Blue.

In regards to your comment about they simply go back to doing the same job but at three times the salary, not hardly. As an example the US military nor it allies can teach a recognized civilian law enforcement organization it is against International Law. They must be taught by civilian LEO's. Now in these countries Police is simply a word. They carry belt fed PKM's, RPG's and other heavy weapons and engage the insurgents but they also do standard police work.

I had military trainers on my team but and they could teach the police subjects but I had to sign off on whatever they taught. We were monitored closely by international organizations constantly. I hate to say it but the basic soldier while good at his job probably does not have the specific education or practical knowledge of a 10 year street cop.

Why does everything have to be corrupt? An example. You hire 10 contractors to pull convoy security and pay them whatever cash with no healthcare, insurance or benefits. You have the same 10 soldiers to do the job, but wait! For those 10 soldiers you now have to have command and control, support troops, medical, logistics, finance, mechanics for the vehicles, dental care, chaplains, retirement so now you are up to 50 soldiers and triple the cost. If one gets hurt now you have another set of costs.

It is all about what saves the most money in the long run. Now I am saying this from a security standpoint not the plumbers, food workers, supply, fuel, equipment and so on that there has been coruption, fraud, waste and abuse on. There is a time when profit margin and greed become so intertwined that you cannot tell the difference anymore.

Expat's. Loved by some. Hated by many. Needed by all.
 
#45 ·
It is all about what saves the most money in the long run.
When privatizing or contracting is in fact all about what saves money, especially in the long run, while keeping a quality
service, I don't object. I do however think that in very many instances the savings are illusions, the quality suffers,
and tax payer money is diverted to the pockets of some rich influential dude who was able to pull a fast one because of connections.

I also think that there are core functions which must remain under democratic control, through elected officials,
and I think police, fire, corrections, road planning and design (not actual construction), are examples of such.

Just food for thought. A great deal of our "justice" system has been privatized. All those arbitration agreements
folks get forced to enter into with their brokers, their banks, their insurance companies, their IT providers,
and many others remove justice from where it belongs, the regular courts, to private arbitrators. This has not
gone well for consumers. It has lightened the load of the regular courts, but the system is generally thought to be one
sided with the arbitrators beholden to some extent to the companies which write the contracts in the first place.
 
#47 ·
Just to make sure we, MCP1810 and I are on the same page; I'm not objecting to what you describe at all.
I think that type of arrangement works well for all involved. It provides extra income for the retired officer, personnel for
the hiring department at reduced cost, and a trained experienced officer for taking care of business. That's win win win win
win all around.

I have no problem with that.

I don't think what you are describing is what people generally mean when they talk about contracting out, outsourcing, or
privatization.
 
#48 ·
I think party of the problem in a general sense is a lack of clarity when people talk of contracting stuff out. It is not always going to be the government taking the low bid on contact for replacing an entire agency.

And it is not always that great a deal for the contractors. A couple of guys that had recently retired from my department were over in Iraq training police there. Some of them possibly worked with Tacman. Being contractors they could not just go to the armory if they had a weapons issue. some coworkers and I indeed up sending tools and repair parts and manuals over there to keep things working.
With some of the contact security work I have done I had to provide everything from ammo to radio gear. If something didn't work I didn't get paid and contact was breached as fail to perform.
 
#50 ·
Kwood. I can assure you if they hired contracted out LE in California they would meet minimum standards set by P.O.S.T. or they would be granted and exception. Once again they would probably roll over the employees they have already.

I just read somewhere that one eastern state is contracting a big name company to enforce fishing regs for them so maybe it has already started.
 
#52 ·
Fact is we are financial pedophiles. That is we are borrowing ~40% of annual federal expenditures from future generations and spending it on ourselves.

What is so special about our generation that we think future generations should pay for our lifestyle?

Shame.
 
#53 ·
Nightflyer not a problem.

"Financial Pedophiles" I will have to remember that one.
 
#54 ·
I am late to this party but here goes, contract police forces are really nothing new, 30 years ago I lived in an affluent part of NYC where they collected money from the homeowners and hired private patrols, kind of a professional neighborhood watch. while they didn't have police powers or do police duties like take accident reports, they did patrol the streets and they did detain bad guys. My area was not unique. Some villages on Long Island had 6 man police departments that may have well been like private shops.
 
#56 ·
That really has nothing to do with a true contrated or privatization of a police force like the OP was talking about. We are talking about contractors that would be peace officer or what ever you want to call them with the same rights and responsibilites and authority of a LEO. Not high priced security guards doing limited security work.
 
#59 ·
I am a few days late to this thread, but to those who say a contract force is not the way to go because it has to be more expensive to the taxpayer, provide inferior services or not serve the public good. I disagree. You have to look at the total cost of providing the service at both the government level and in the private setting. True, private companies are driven by the profit motive and the government, clearly, is not. (Yes, they make money on tickets, etc, but in the end, by nature, government is more about spending money than making it).

Hop - you have your knickers in a knot because some CEO may make a good bit of money running an outsourced company. Sure he will. It is called return on investment. But, to earn that salary, he will have found ways to drive process improvements, enhance efficiency, reduce waste and provide a superior product. A private company can earn a profit because it has the incentive to do what it takes to earn that profit.

We can disagree on this for now, but in a few years, one of us will be proven right. We will have to wait and see who that is.
 
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#61 ·
We can disagree on this for now, but in a few years, one of us will be proven right. We will have to wait and see who that is.
In a few years I expect to see very nasty fragging and "friendly fire" incidents between the real military and the private contractors. God only knows what new hell will develop on the streets with weird gaggles of corrupt corporate mercenaries blundering around like buffoons.
 
#67 ·
"In a few years I expect to see very nasty fragging and "friendly fire" incidents between the real military and the private contractors. God only knows what new hell will develop on the streets with weird gaggles of corrupt corporate mercenaries blundering around like buffoons."

Wow and you factual basis for this is......................................? Many of the private contractors are prior military so why would they have problems with a military unit?
I have been contracted to the DOD and DOS providing security services for the last six years in three countries so why all of a sudden are there going to be "friendly fire" incidents between the contractors and the military?

"Corrupt Corporate Mercenaries"

Again where did you come up with this? Do you even know what the definition of a Mercenary is without googling it?

"Yeah I can read the brochures as well as the next guy. Having been a high speed, low drag, fast mover while under command guidance in the past is no guarantee of well reasoned and disciplined behavior in the future."

A contractor has more rules, regulations, laws and guidelines to go by than the US tax code. Yep some contractors did stupid things as have priests, cops, doctors, lawyers and judges. They got caught and lost their jobs. By these statements I can tell all you have done is read the brochures and never been high speed, low drag anything.

How many contractors have ever been brought up on charges and been tried during the Iraq War? A handful at most.

Could it be the reason for this is that they have not committed any crimes to get arrested for? Oh wait you saw it on CNN so it must be true. You sit on your butt and see something reported and think you know the whole story. Ever been shot at bubba? Ever rolled over and IED? Ever been on the receiving end of an RPG?
In places like this you cannot tell the players even with a team roster it changes that quick so do not even pretend to know what you are talking about.

What are we to believe from this, that going private instantly transforms people into the military version of The Stepford Wives?

A PMC is a professional who chooses to provide services to the US Government which are needed in certain areas of the world. They are not some robotic killing machine if that is what you are implying.

Much easier the believe that the system that contracts them is corrupt to the core and anyone involved can expect carte blanche to engage in whatever idiocy or criminality they desire.


Sounds to me like you have not only read the brochures but watched youtube and played to much Call of Duty and are talking out of your ass. Contractors operate on the edge all the time. You do not have the protection of the military or a SOFA (Status of Forces Agreement) with the host nation. Idiots and criminals do not last long in this business they either get arrested or dead pretty damn quick.

Suntzu I guess you and I had better never meet in person because according to this guy we would kill all that oppose us and take over whatever state we are in.
 
#71 ·
When Did Being a Government Contractor Become a Bad Thing

Yeah it's all sunshine and lolipops ain't it?

No contractor ever committed a crime? Really?

I don't have to play whateverthefork on a game console, which is good since I don't own one, I just just have to kick back and talk to neighbors who were activated in the Guard and Reserves to hear stuff. Maybe it's biased but then it's not so hard to find stuff like this too PeaceReporter - Unfriendly fire

Seriously, people aren't impressed at all by it. No one gives a flying fork at a rolling donut about what you do in Afghanistan either. I'd hazard a guess that most Americans these days don't feel so great about ever have had on drop of blood spilled in the sandbox
 
#73 ·
Stop trying to stear this thread to security contractors overseas. They perform a different function than would be contractors performing LEO duties in the US. If you have an agenda I suggest you write letters to Media Matters.
As far as your buddies who have been called up telling you war stories...that is most likely what they are. Most contractors like most of anybody perform their jobs with professionalism and honesty. They are no different than any other occupation.

But, this is a forum for opinions until an mod closes the thread. So it you want go right ahead googling your heart out and trying to find 'dirt' on contractors. I am sure all I have to do is read the daily paper and I will find a LEO, firemans, accountant, doctor, McDonalds worker who has done a bad thing today. But heck, what ever floats your boat.
 
#72 ·
WD. Thanks for the article. It does nothing more than explain the role, in a very well thought out and complimentary fashion, of the PMC. If this is your idea of a slam to contractors you really need to do more research.

I remember back when military contractors were revered and respected. When you thought of a military contractor, you thought of someone who would step up and go into the worst places on this planet, risking their lives so young American warfighters wouldn’t have to.

Yes, they got paid more than Soldiers or Marines, but they also often didn't have as much protection, supporting forces or as powerful weapons as the warfighter. Yet they were right there, on the left and right. Contractors performed then and still do today many jobs so soldiers are free to perform their jobs, and focus on the mission at hand.

Contractors were and still are greater subject matter experts in their area of work – that’s why they’re hired to perform a specific function in combat or at home. Many who I know are also veterans themselves, although there are many who aren’t. For those who are veterans, they bring with them a wealth of experience and knowledge that they can bestow on young and eager warriors.

What I’d like to know is when did being a “contractor” become a bad thing? When did calling someone “one of those contractors” become the same as calling them a four-letter word?

Was it when Blackwater had four of its employees tortured and hung from a bridge in Fallujah? Maybe it was when contractors were deployed to Afghanistan to help mentor and train Afghan Police because the German military failed to do so.

I have seen contractors around the U.S. Army for years, and well before the attacks on 9/11. They perform vital and necessary functions, which are needed by our military in order to perform their missions -just as Department of the Army (DA) civilians do. I once heard in the ‘90s that it took twelve soldiers from the non-infantry jobs in the Army to support one infantryman. I have no idea how many DA civilians and contractors it takes in addition but I would imagine it would be close to another twelve.

Bottom line is it seems to me that as of late, contractors are blamed for many of the military’s woes (from budgets to fatal accidents). JFCOM was just disbanded with a key criticism being that contractors outnumbered service members. Calls from congress and government agencies for the need to insource and cut contracts makes government contracting seem more like a cancer than the critical support function it’s designed to be.

I spent 22 years serving this country in the Army and am now serving her as a military contractor. I am proud of all my service and I hope other contractors feel the same way. I am not saying there are not bad people out there that give contractors a bad name, there are. Just like there are bad DA civilians and service members in uniform.

As the saying goes, “don’t hate the player, hate the game”. Government contractors did not develop the need and positions themselves, the government determined the need and came to the civilian industry to help fill the gap. Contractors are serving this country we all love, and they do it without the job security and benefits DA civilians and service members enjoy.

No one serving this country – whether they’re a government civilian, service member, or contractor – should be made to feel guilty or ashamed of that service.

Are you a government contractor? How do you feel about your service to the country? Or do you think the criticism is deserved?


In regards to the second article. You are kidding right? An article from 2005. You really need to get out more. The article did not say there were firefights between US military and contractors it said that a company travelling through fired at random and some shots hit Marine positions. Once again you have proven my point. You sit on your couch and watch TV and automatically you know everything.

I don't really care what you or anyone else is impressed with. I do not do this job to win brownie points with the couch potato, Oprah watchers of America. If this is all you got I will say again you are talking out of your ass but troll on you are sitting safe in your trailer.

I see you did not answer my questions either in reference to your service or ever being in harm's way. I guess your silence is answer enough.

This thread will probably be locked soon but I have no doubt we will have many more chances to discuss topics and with your knowledge and intellect it should prove to be quite entertaining.

Semper Fi.
 
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#75 ·
No worries HB.

He is one of those who although they never wore a uniform, served on a foreign soil, wore a badge on the street, been in harms way or spilled a drop of blood in defense of others knows just what it is like. He can make statements or give advice on how it should be done because someone told him that a friend of his third brother's cousin who was in Kuwait said so or he saw it on Fox News and it just had to be true.

What he says,though irritating, is so easy to refute it is entertaining which is in fact a valuable commodity here. After all I took an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States so I guess I am protecting his right to say what he wants even though he is still talking out of his asna.

By the way asna is a Swedish word since there has been a rash of comprehension problems lately.

Semper Fi.
 
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#76 ·
No worries HB.

He is one of those who although they never wore a uniform, served on a foreign soil, wore a badge on the street, been in harms way or spilled a drop of blood in defense of others knows just what it is like. He can make statements or give advice on how it should be done because someone told him that a friend of his third brother's cousin who was in Kuwait said so or he saw it on Fox News and it just had to be true.

What he says,though irritating, is so easy to refute it is entertaining which is in fact a valuable commodity here. After all I took an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States so I guess I am protecting his right to say what he wants even though he is still talking out of his asna.

By the way asna is a Swedish word since there has been a rash of comprehension problems lately.

Semper Fi.
Amen to that...
 
#79 ·
Hey Fella's

In my experience... Private police is nothing new. As another poster said In NY there are private police departments. Both industrial, and residential. While municipal police are responsible to the people, and the political subdivision that pay them, The private police are answerable to the laws regulating them and the business that pays them. The private police have some limited peace officer powers while on duty, and on post. The municipal police always has co-jurisdiction.

In most larger cities many traditional policing tasks have been given over to civilians, or private contractors.

Traffic control
issuance of parking citations
jails
prisoner transport
vehical maintenance
technical support
some training

Could a police department be completely replaced by a private contract agency? I dont think so. The thought is scary to me.
 
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