TSA gone wild...uh, I mean, stupid - Page 4

TSA gone wild...uh, I mean, stupid

This is a discussion on TSA gone wild...uh, I mean, stupid within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Moops Not that I think it'll do much good, but I started a petition to abolish the TSA. I figure that if ...

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Thread: TSA gone wild...uh, I mean, stupid

  1. #46
    Member Array Moops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    Not that I think it'll do much good, but I started a petition to abolish the TSA. I figure that if it gets enough signatures, it will at least be a bargaining chip for throwing the bums out when they refuse (that's what petitions are for, right?). You'll have to create a whitehouse.gov account, but it's pretty quick and painless (though it'll probably get the SS looking your way).
    Whoa, I didn't realize that there had already been another petition for the exact same thing. The "answer" came from none other than the TSA director himself. Surprisingly, he didn't agree that his department should be abolished and he should find himself unemployed. Well, leave it to the Obama administration to beg the question in answering citizen complaints.
    "Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty


  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    Whoa, I didn't realize that there had already been another petition for the exact same thing. The "answer" came from none other than the TSA director himself. Surprisingly, he didn't agree that his department should be abolished and he should find himself unemployed. Well, leave it to the Obama administration to beg the question in answering citizen complaints.
    I think you have something mixed up. The former director, not Pistole, wrote an opinion piece about how TSA might be reformed.
    But of course, he was responsible for implementing every last one of their unacceptable policies in the first place; years ago.

    Former TSA Chief: Air Security Is Flawed - AviationPros.com

    "Kip Hawley, former head of the Transportation Security Administration, says airport security is broken and should be fixed."

    Uh, the big question is why did he allow it to go as it did? Why did he wait to speak up now instead of before
    when he held the office of Administrator? Where was he when the monster was being born?

    "Hawley held the post from July 27, 2005 to January 20, 2009, replacing the previous Director, Rear Admiral David Stone. He was succeeded by Acting Administrator Gale Rossides." Kip Hawley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Do note the dates please as Jan 20 was the last day of the prior administration's tenure.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  3. #48
    Senior Member Array Happypuppy's Avatar
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    It is all like boiling frogs. They are getting everyone to think it's normal,to be searched,spied on, frisked and asked to produce identification for buying booze to a gun to perscriptions. some may well make sense but some are dubious at best. All my debit / credit transactions are tracked for my buying habits (think twice about those cute little "membership "discount grocery cards)

    I am getting old. I remember when drivers licenses didn't have a picture. Check points didn't exist ( booze, ID in border areas) cameras were not everywhere, people just got in planes , trains and buses. Air marshalls worked, hijacking in the 60's stopped. we cut it back in favor of this? Anyone feel safer?
    Last edited by Happypuppy; April 29th, 2012 at 05:44 PM.
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I think you have something mixed up. The former director, not Pistole, wrote an opinion piece about how TSA might be reformed.
    But of course, he was responsible for implementing every last one of their unacceptable policies in the first place; years ago.

    Former TSA Chief: Air Security Is Flawed - AviationPros.com

    "Kip Hawley, former head of the Transportation Security Administration, says airport security is broken and should be fixed."

    Uh, the big question is why did he allow it to go as it did? Why did he wait to speak up now instead of before
    when he held the office of Administrator? Where was he when the monster was being born?

    "Hawley held the post from July 27, 2005 to January 20, 2009, replacing the previous Director, Rear Admiral David Stone. He was succeeded by Acting Administrator Gale Rossides." Kip Hawley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Do note the dates please as Jan 20 was the last day of the prior administration's tenure.
    I was referring to a previous petition on whitehouse.gov to abolish the TSA. It received enough signatures to elicit an "answer" from the Obama administration. Their answer was simply a cheerleading article by the current TSA director, John Pistole. In other words, the Obama administration asked the TSA whether it should abolish itself. I know that Kip Hawley wrote an OP/ED about the problems with the TSA, but I was referring to the current director.

    Quote Originally Posted by Happypuppy View Post
    It is all like boiling frogs. They are getting everyone to think it's normal,to be searched,spied on, frisked and asked to produce identification for buying booze to a gun to perscriptions. some may well make sense but some are dubious at best. All my debit / credit transactions are tracked for my buying habits (think twice about those cute little "membership "discount grocery cards)

    I am getting old. I remember when drivers licenses didn't have a picture. Check points didn't exist ( booze, ID in border areas) cameras were not everywhere, people just got in planes , trains and buses. Air marshalls worked, hijacking in the 60's stopped. we cut it back in favor of this? Anyone well safer?
    All the more reason to keep pushing the issue. Sign my petition. It isn't much, but it's better than nothing.
    "Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happypuppy View Post
    It is all like boiling frogs. They are getting everyone to think it's normal,to be searched,spied on, frisked and asked to produce identification for buying booze to a gun to perscriptions. some may well make sense but some are dubious at best. All my debit / credit transactions are tracked for my buying habits (think twice about those cute little "membership "discount grocery cards)

    I am getting old. I remember when drivers licenses didn't have a picture. Check points didn't exist ( booze, ID in border areas) cameras were not everywhere, people just got in planes , trains and buses. Air marshalls worked, hijacking in the 60's stopped. we cut it back in favor of this? Anyone well safer?
    Well Mr. Happypuppy, I'm an old dude too who remembers those days well. I agree with you.

    For all the young people who think a DL and a photo ID for everything is normal, you are mistaken.
    For all of you who think it is just a grand idea that protects everyone, you are wrong.

    When Happypuppy and I were young we all made fun of, and derisive comments about,
    dictators and totalitarian societies which used a papers please approach to controlling where you went.
    Internal passports, to go from one city to another. How's that ID check at the airport sound and what's to keep it from
    becoming that internal passport?

    You want to lose your freedom, cheer on those politicians who want you to have to produce an ID for everything.
    The next thing you'll know is there will be excuses for not letting you have some paper you need. Maybe you owe the
    IRS a little too much, no passport. Maybe you owe
    child support, no DL or CHL. Maybe your bank thinks you owe them for the fraudulent debit card transaction you had nothing to
    do with, they'll just file a piece of paper and the state will withhold your State ID.

    You want totalitarianism, you fear we are getting it, think a little about what many of you cheer on. Be careful what you wish for.
    The proposed cures for some of our present ills is far worse than the disease. Can you say, non-person? It can happen to you.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Don't you see that there is a problem right there? Being pat down. The government can say all they want (you don't have to fly, you can drive..yada yada). The BG's and terrorists have figured it out..don't walk thru security with a gun. They are only catching morons that 'supposedly' forgot they had a loaded weapon in their carry on. I think the guy last month had it right. Just strip down and walk on through.
    Sure. Prohibiting ownership for criminals only works with law abiding criminals(???). Gun free zones are only gun free for people who obey signs. Patting down random travelers doesn't do much to prevent threats. But people on the forum FEEL better knowing that felons could NEVER have a gun. People at Virginia Tech FEEL that they could never be victims of gun violence. And people who demand airport security FEEL better knowing that there are giant backscatter cancer machines, and walmart employee security services at the gate. Do I prefer to surrender my protections against unreasonable search and seizure? No. But I was talking about private security, and a voluntary interaction with an airline. Same as how I do my best to respect private property owner's ridiculous signs and spend my money elsewhere.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." -Obligatory Founding Father Quote

  7. #52
    Member Array Moops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterAvis View Post
    Sure. Prohibiting ownership for criminals only works with law abiding criminals(???). Gun free zones are only gun free for people who obey signs. Patting down random travelers doesn't do much to prevent threats. But people on the forum FEEL better knowing that felons could NEVER have a gun. People at Virginia Tech FEEL that they could never be victims of gun violence. And people who demand airport security FEEL better knowing that there are giant backscatter cancer machines, and walmart employee security services at the gate. Do I prefer to surrender my protections against unreasonable search and seizure? No. But I was talking about private security, and a voluntary interaction with an airline. Same as how I do my best to respect private property owner's ridiculous signs and spend my money elsewhere.
    I go overseas a fair amount. Sometimes not flying is not an option.
    "Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterAvis View Post
    Sure. Prohibiting ownership for criminals only works with law abiding criminals(???). Gun free zones are only gun free for people who obey signs. Patting down random travelers doesn't do much to prevent threats. But people on the forum FEEL better knowing that felons could NEVER have a gun. People at Virginia Tech FEEL that they could never be victims of gun violence. And people who demand airport security FEEL better knowing that there are giant backscatter cancer machines, and walmart employee security services at the gate. Do I prefer to surrender my protections against unreasonable search and seizure? No. But I was talking about private security, and a voluntary interaction with an airline. Same as how I do my best to respect private property owner's ridiculous signs and spend my money elsewhere.
    Keep in mind that what I put in bold is what we had prior. But before about 1992 ish, you walked up to a counter, bought a ticket,
    got a boarding pass, went through the basic metal detector and X-ray scanner of hand carry stuff sans "government ID" and went about your business. And a few years before that, you just walked to the gate and got on board.

    My problem isn't that government is providing the security, as I don't think private industry did a particularly good job; as proven by
    9/11. The problem is that the wrong solutions are being used.

    Government issued ID to board doesn't have a thing to
    do with securing the plane. And if memory serves, the practice of requiring ID really started (there is always a behind the scenes reason) to protect the
    integrity of frequent flyer program points. Your beloved private sector just got government to help them protect their turf.
    Of course there was some incident circa 1992 if memory serves to make it easy to justify. Before that, no papers, just money for
    the ride.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  9. #54
    Member Array MisterAvis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    I go overseas a fair amount. Sometimes not flying is not an option.
    Oh I completely agree. I'm not going to drive to SF. But if all airports could be like SFO, or all airports could be like DIA, I know what my choice would be. Low tech, and no federal security goons, immune from free market competition and any chance of responsiveness or improvement. Laws DO require airlines to have security... going with the TSA is a business choice, and in my estimation, a poor one.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." -Obligatory Founding Father Quote

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Keep in mind that what I put in bold is what we had prior. But before about 1992 ish, you walked up to a counter, bought a ticket,
    got a boarding pass, went through the basic metal detector and X-ray scanner sans "government ID" and went about your business. And a few years before that, you just walked to the gate and got on board.

    My problem isn't that government is providing the security, as I don't think private industry did a particularly good job; as proven by
    9/11. The problem is that the wrong solutions are being used.

    Government issued ID to board doesn't have a thing to
    do with securing the plane. And if memory serves, the practice of requiring ID really started (there is always a behind the scenes reason) to protect the
    integrity of frequent flyer program points. Your beloved private sector just got government to help them protect their turf.
    Of course there was some incident circa 1992 if memory serves to make it easy to justify. Before that, no papers, just money for
    the ride.
    Lets talk about what I highlited in bold....umm...so it was all private securities fault about 9/11. What about:

    1. Laws that prevented intelligence agencies from sharing info with each other and LE and DOD
    2. How about they were following the guidelines that were put in place by the government.

    How did private security fail us? What rules did they not follow that led to the hijackings? Once they were on board a differnt protocol was being followed which basically told the air crew to cooperate with hijackers...

    There were very few hijackings originating from US airports and that was before all of the new TSA BS.

    Did it occur to you that Al Queda studied our security for years before attempting 9/11. Did you think that terrorists right now are not looking to find vulnerabilities

    I swear Hop, you hear the word private industry and you automaticlly say that the government is better. Are you sure you are not a socialist j/k

  11. #56
    Member Array MisterAvis's Avatar
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    So putting the unaccountable bureaucrats in charge because private enterprise didn't do well enough is a solution? What did 9/11 prove more? That private security is lacking or that US intelligence is lacking? The government can't serve their primary function, protect the borders, but they really shine in preventing freedom of movement within the country? The TSA works just like any federal goodie. Nothing is free. And no, airlines aren't faultless...
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." -Obligatory Founding Father Quote

  12. #57
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    I'll throw my two cents into this conversation, if I may..

    I just passed my seventh step in a ten step assessment, my dream job is "Protective Services" of Homeland Security. I got "grilled" in Jersey City, NJ and two days later in Harrisburg, PA and came away with my sealed medical packet, took my physical and two weeks later passed. One day I'll be working for all federal agencies and all federal buildings, and if need be all Airports or anywheres else my (EOD) entrance on duty station may take me,that said, I can't speak for the TSO officers and their operational procedures, policy and regualtory requirements, I know for me, I am going to use plain old common sense and keep things simple. lol.

    Night

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightflyer View Post
    I'll throw my two cents into this conversation, if I may..

    I just passed my seventh step in a ten step assessment, my dream job is "Protective Services" of Homeland Security. I got "grilled" in Jersey City, NJ and two days later in Harrisburg, PA and came away with my sealed medical packet, took my physical and two weeks later passed. One day I'll be working for all federal agencies and all federal buildings, and if need be all Airports or anywheres else my (EOD) entrance on duty station may take me,that said, I can't speak for the TSO officers and their operational procedures, policy and regualtory requirements, I know for me, I am going to use plain old common sense and keep things simple. lol.

    Night
    Congrats. If you think of your Federal job as performing a patriotic duty for your country, you will do well. When you
    start to think of it as "another job" and "I couldn't care less," please leave. And when you take your oath of office, please
    give it the same deep thought our new citizens usually give it when they are sworn.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Congrats. If you think of your Federal job as performing a patriotic duty for your country, you will do well. When you
    start to think of it as "another job" and "I couldn't care less," please leave. And when you take your oath of office, please
    give it the same deep thought our new citizens usually give it when they are sworn.
    I promise, I'll never be careless or couldn't care less or it's just another job, because for me it isn't, it will always be about the trooper to my left and the trooper to my right. It's my honor to serve my people and my country.

    This I swear. Thank you Sir.

    Night

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    My problem isn't that government is providing the security, as I don't think private industry did a particularly good job; as proven by
    9/11. The problem is that the wrong solutions are being used.
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    How did private security fail us? What rules did they not follow that led to the hijackings? Once they were on board a differnt protocol was being followed which basically told the air crew to cooperate with hijackers... <snip>
    I swear Hop, you hear the word private industry and you automaticlly say that the government is better. Are you sure you are not a socialist j/k
    Part of the problem was one of inconsistent standards and moving airport security under one common agency was a measure to help address this. The issue isn't one of private (corporate) versus govt. Personally, I am getting really tired of the "govt can't do anything right" versus "you must be a communist" argument. It doesn't make sense. Just because something is managed by a govt institution versus a corporation doesn't inherrently make it good or bad or speak to the quality and integrity of those employed. A lot of that has to do with the management from above and I have seen both good and bad in both the private and public sectors with similar results.

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