TSA gone wild...uh, I mean, stupid

This is a discussion on TSA gone wild...uh, I mean, stupid within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by noway2 Part of the problem was one of inconsistent standards and moving airport security under one common agency was a measure to ...

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Thread: TSA gone wild...uh, I mean, stupid

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    Part of the problem was one of inconsistent standards and moving airport security under one common agency was a measure to help address this. The issue isn't one of private (corporate) versus govt. Personally, I am getting really tired of the "govt can't do anything right" versus "you must be a communist" argument. It doesn't make sense. Just because something is managed by a govt institution versus a corporation doesn't inherrently make it good or bad or speak to the quality and integrity of those employed. A lot of that has to do with the management from above and I have seen both good and bad in both the private and public sectors with similar results.
    I have never said for any agencey to be totally privatized and/or contracted out. TSA specifically I have always said tha private contractors can do the same job and cheaper but they would work under government supervision, not oversight. One standard would be in place. And if a contractor at a specific airport is not performing to the standard then another contractor can be employed.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I have never said for any agencey to be totally privatized and/or contracted out. TSA specifically I have always said tha private contractors can do the same job and cheaper but they would work under government supervision, not oversight. One standard would be in place. And if a contractor at a specific airport is not performing to the standard then another contractor can be employed.
    I don't think that would solve the present problems we have. They are the epitome of 'the fish rots from the head.'
    Everything right and everything wrong about airport security stems from high level policy positions made years ago
    by people who at the top who were thinking only of security (and CYA) and not of customer service.

    They've got the wrong leadership in TSA and changing to a private screening while retaining the present and past mindset
    that everyone must be presumed to be a terrorist is not going to make anything better for anyone.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  4. #63
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I don't think that would solve the present problems we have. They are the epitome of 'the fish rots from the head.'
    Everything right and everything wrong about airport security stems from high level policy positions made years ago
    by people who at the top who were thinking only of security (and CYA) and not of customer service.

    They've got the wrong leadership in TSA and changing to a private screening while retaining the present and past mindset
    that everyone must be presumed to be a terrorist is not going to make anything better for anyone.
    I hate to bring that ugly word unions into it and how you have to go out of your way to get fired in a government job...nuff said

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I hate to bring that ugly word unions into it and how you have to go out of your way to get fired in a government job...nuff said
    I don't know what experiences you have had, but it really isn't hard to fire a Federal worker at all. It gets done all the time.
    Its actually fairly easy if you have cause and do the paper work correctly. And beyond outright firing, there are many
    options for "correcting" someone. Unions have nothing much to say about any of it. There is nothing quite as weak as
    a Federal Union; ask the air traffic controllers who are still alive who were fired in 1982 or 3.

    I've seen groups of people where the average length of government service was 20 years all get laid off with one fell swoop.
    I've seen people "encouraged" to depart, and I've seen people put on "performance improvement plans," designed to
    make sure they don't improve, and hence can be shown the door.

    That's my experience from 33 + years as a civilian Federale. A lot of what people think about how Federal employment
    works is either entirely false, or it is impressions left over from the days before the Civil Service Commission was abolished and
    replaced by the Merit System Protection Board, which protects "merit" not employees.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  6. #65
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I don't know what experiences you have had, but it really isn't hard to fire a Federal worker at all. It gets done all the time.
    Its actually fairly easy if you have cause and do the paper work correctly. And beyond outright firing, there are many
    options for "correcting" someone. Unions have nothing much to say about any of it. There is nothing quite as weak as
    a Federal Union; ask the air traffic controllers who are still alive who were fired in 1982 or 3.

    I've seen groups of people where the average length of government service was 20 years all get laid off with one fell swoop.
    I've seen people "encouraged" to depart, and I've seen people put on "performance improvement plans," designed to
    make sure they don't improve, and hence can be shown the door.

    That's my experience from 33 + years as a civilian Federale. A lot of what people think about how Federal employment
    works is either entirely false, or it is impressions left over from the days before the Civil Service Commission was abolished and
    replaced by the Merit System Protection Board, which protects "merit" not employees.
    Well, I can bore you with 7 vivid experiences I have had personally trying to get pea brains fired. They were moved from sensitive jobs to ones that did not require a clearance becasue they screwed up and lost their security clearance to begin with. And they got to keep their pay grade. The unions backed each one with the the same excuses, PTSD, needs to seek counseling, or some other form of excuse. Those were the ones I had to deal with it. As far as others that I know of and have good info on the same thing happens to them. They just move them around.

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Well, I can bore you with 7 vivid experiences I have had personally trying to get pea brains fired. They were moved from sensitive jobs to ones that did not require a clearance becasue they screwed up and lost their security clearance to begin with. And they got to keep their pay grade. The unions backed each one with the the same excuses, PTSD, needs to seek counseling, or some other form of excuse. Those were the ones I had to deal with it. As far as others that I know of and have good info on the same thing happens to them. They just move them around.
    Some managers are just cowards or too lazy to bother with the rules. Like I said, people can be disciplined and fired and it
    isn't really hard to do.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I don't know what experiences you have had, but it really isn't hard to fire a Federal worker at all. It gets done all the time.
    Its actually fairly easy if you have cause and do the paper work correctly. And beyond outright firing, there are many
    options for "correcting" someone. Unions have nothing much to say about any of it. There is nothing quite as weak as
    a Federal Union; ask the air traffic controllers who are still alive who were fired in 1982 or 3.

    I've seen groups of people where the average length of government service was 20 years all get laid off with one fell swoop.
    I've seen people "encouraged" to depart, and I've seen people put on "performance improvement plans," designed to
    make sure they don't improve, and hence can be shown the door.

    That's my experience from 33 + years as a civilian Federale. A lot of what people think about how Federal employment
    works is either entirely false, or it is impressions left over from the days before the Civil Service Commission was abolished and
    replaced by the Merit System Protection Board, which protects "merit" not employees.
    very far from the truth^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by apvbguy View Post
    very far from the truth^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    OK, I'm a liar. Whatever.

    Sorry reality doesn't conform to your preconceived notions.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  10. #69
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    OK, I'm a liar. Whatever.

    Sorry reality doesn't conform to your preconceived notions.
    Well, at least I did not call you a liar But obviously your experience with federal workers departs from many I have talked to and have seen posted on this forum. The fact is from my/our collective experience is is harder to fire a union and/or federal worker than it is for a boss in the private sector that is non unionized. And though most of my adult life has been in the military or as a contractor I have worked with many contractors and they only seem to fire folks that deserve to be let go...just my 28 year experience. And I have seen unions protect those that should be fired. Guess we all grow up different

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Well, at least I did not call you a liar But obviously your experience with federal workers departs from many I have talked to and have seen posted on this forum. The fact is from my/our collective experience is is harder to fire a union and/or federal worker than it is for a boss in the private sector that is non unionized. And though most of my adult life has been in the military or as a contractor I have worked with many contractors and they only seem to fire folks that deserve to be let go...just my 28 year experience. And I have seen unions protect those that should be fired. Guess we all grow up different
    Not to hijack the thread, well, just one example--- look how fast those Secret Service agents were disciplined once their bosses found out they couldn't be trusted.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  12. #71
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Not to hijack the thread, well, just one example--- look how fast those Secret Service agents were disciplined once their bosses found out they couldn't be trusted.
    Apples and oranges. It was all over the news. Of course things will happen when there is a public outcry. Plus they lost their clearance which means they couldn't be a secret service agent anyway. And do you really think that was the first time the bosses new of such things? If you do then I politely suggest you are naive. The bosses IMO knew what goes on down range since most grew up in that service. They got caught, it was made public, they had to get fired. And if my theory is correct, the bosses already knew stuff like that was going on. And they did not do anything.

  13. #72
    Ex Member Array apvbguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    OK, I'm a liar. Whatever.

    Sorry reality doesn't conform to your preconceived notions.
    nor does it jibe with your fantasies, how many government workers do you know?
    I am just surprised you didn't deem my response seditious

  14. #73
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Well, I can bore you with 7 vivid experiences
    Non-salient. This is the "no global climate change because it's cold today outside my window" fallacy. The scalar effects of large numbers make the case. Whatever dinky localized things you see immediate to you are not important nor interesting. Keep your eye on big data.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

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    Quote Originally Posted by apvbguy View Post
    nor does it jibe with your fantasies, how many government workers do you know?
    I am just surprised you didn't deem my response seditious
    Oh, presently about 75 and when I was still working about 200 at any given point in time.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickohio View Post
    If its completely impossible for me to drive there I'm not going there. The so called 'War on Terror' or whatever Obama started calling it will be the death knell for this country as we know it, sooner or later.
    TSA AND DHS are both children and legacy of George Bush and Overlord Rumsfeld. Obama had nothing to do with it. They had been in place for 7 years before Obama took the oath. DHS was the single greatest expansion of government in the history of the United States. The Homeland Security Act was at the behest of George Bush and Rumsfeld. Read the web page and note the year: 7 calendar years before president Obama takes office.

    The patriot act was signed into law by George Bush October 26th, 2001; EIGHT calendar years before Obama's inauguration. It is/was the greatest usurpment/cancellation/suspension of civil liberties and constitutional rights in the history of the United States. Trillions of dollars have been vested in these agencies and powers. Stepping into office at the height of the greatest economic collapse since the Great Depression (again thanks to Bush), there is nothing to be done but extend the patriot act for four more years....there simply isn't any money, time or manpower to re-tool and declaring it void without an alternative would leave us defenseless. It's called making the best of a bad situation.

    Here is the wiki on the the war on terror. Read the first sentence of the second paragraph. I can't believe anyone could be blind enough to blame this on President Obama. Where do you get your history lessons?

    If you want to see how airport security should be run, fly to Singapore.

    As a US Citizen it is your duty and mine to get behind the President and pull the sled whether you voted for him or not. United we stand, divided we fall. Every time you defame or criticize the sitting President you weaken our country and its standing in the world. We can't survive as a nation of sore losers who work to impede the governance of our nation. It is quite simple to disagree without criticizing.

    A loyal opposition working to influence policy with reason is completely different from a hateful mob laying waste to any progress not of their design.

    The former devises a better way while putting a shoulder to the harness, the latter burns the harness and stops the plow.

    Which one are you?

    Ignorance is the enemy.
    Sig35seven, Hopyard and atctimmy like this.

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