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Drug Wars....how long before we have stuff like this here?

6K views 104 replies 36 participants last post by  64zebra 
#1 ·
Another reason to get serious about shutting down the border.......

Associate Press Sunday 5/13/12
Official: 49 bodies left on Mexico highway

MONTERREY, Mexico (AP) — Forty-nine decapitated and mutilated bodies were found Sunday dumped on a highway connecting the northern Mexican metropolis of Monterrey to the U.S. border in what appears to be the latest blow in an escalating war of intimidation among drug gangs.

Mexico's organized crime groups often abandon multiple bodies in public places as warnings to their rivals, and authorities said at least a few of the recent victims had tattoos of the Santa Muerte cult popular among drug traffickers. But Nuevo Leon state Attorney General Adrian de la Garza said he did not rule out the possibility that the victims were U.S.-bound migrants.

The bodies of the 43 men and six women were found in the town of San Juan on the non-toll highway to the border city of Reynosa at about 4 a.m. (5 a.m. EDT; 0900 GMT), forcing police and troops to close off the highway. Nuevo Leon state security spokesman Jorge Domene said at a news conference that a banner left at the site bore a message with the Zetas drug cartel taking responsibility for the massacre.
 
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#49 ·
True that, suntzu. these things happen fast and with no warning. I can relate other inventive ways that drugs are transported across the border that just can not be effectively stopped. You can not prohibit things that people want and be successful in that prohibition --- just won't work.
 
#67 ·
legalizing may hurt some cartel operations...but I guarantee you they won't say "ok, let's start making stuffed animals to sell"

legalizing will lead to more people trying drugs....and the more people trying drugs will lead to more addicts, the increase in addicts and the current addicts continuing to do drugs will still lead to people needing money to do their habit, which will continue to increase the amount of thefts/robberies/burglaries/etc that we have happening
Zebra, what evidence do you have to support that claim?

From Richard's article: "We remain in a dangerous period where those appealing to anti-immigration elements are fueling a divisiveness and hostility that might take decades to overcome."

This is certainly demonstrated by several members of this thread, including Richard himself. So what if minority births outnumber white births? Can you honestly claim that saying "the damage is too far gone" is not racist?

I wonder how many people who are screaming of closing the border have ever spent any significant amount of time in a country where, for the most part, simply owning a vehicle or possessing any form of education beyond primary school makes you one of the wealthiest people around; where people would give almost anything for a chance to make it to the US.

Have you ever really considered that America is still, to millions--perhaps billions--of people around the world, a "shining city upon a hill," where the promise of a better life is a real, lifelong dream? Has it ever occurred to those of you who scream "Close the border," that, chances are, your ancestors were once a part of those "huddled masses" seeking a better life for your great-great-grandparents and ultimately you? And that, chances are, there were "native" Americans screaming that they should not be allowed to be here because with them will come crime, poverty, stolen jobs, drugs, etc? Should we then change the words etched onto the Statue of Liberty?

...and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
 
#56 ·
An interesting tidbit: When coming back in to the U.S. from Mexico I often get stopped on the American side for a nearly full blown inspection. I asked why once and the officer told me that the money is now so good in the drug business that they are getting guys like me to mule drugs in to the U.S. I'm a 57 year old white guy with gray hair.

But interesting: The last time I went in to Mexico the Mexicans stopped me for an inspection and that had never happened before. I asked them why and got essentially the same answer, except instead of drugs going in to the U.S. they were looking for cash going back in to Mexico.
 
#59 ·
As long as the Mexican Government sanctions production and distribution of drugs we don't stand a chance.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2
 
#60 ·
this problem is a nasty multi-headed dragon

legalizing may hurt some cartel operations...but I guarantee you they won't say "ok, let's start making stuffed animals to sell"

legalizing will lead to more people trying drugs....and the more people trying drugs will lead to more addicts, the increase in addicts and the current addicts continuing to do drugs will still lead to people needing money to do their habit, which will continue to increase the amount of thefts/robberies/burglaries/etc that we have happening

next is we need to take the gloves off to tackle this issue, the current plan won't work because its half-a.....well half-way done
using drones to fire missiles will not be possible in some situations as suntzu said, but it sure as heck should be used when applicable, if a drone spots someone tossing packages of unknown type/origin across the fence that should be a target since its obvious they are putting something into our country illegally

its a crime to enter our country illegally and for the most part its not being enforced, and when it is there are certain groups screaming discrimination....well... they are morons...people entered illegally...period, the Latino groups scream racism...but its not just persons born in Mexico, there are more OTM (Other Than Mexican) persons captured in Texas than Mexicans, its also a security issue (I wish I could go into further details on what we get trained on but I can't), we don't need to wait until the terrorists gain entry from our border and set off a Nuke, biological, or chemical attack

its ridiculous that we sit back and allow people to come across out border unchecked, bringing in who knows what--products, drugs, disease, and then they demand we change our country/culture/lifestyle for them, they increase burdens in our hospitals (free health care paid for by you and me and I'm sick of it), schools (state budgets maxed out, our kids get screwed), LE/Fire/EMS, and other services

we've been like the frog in the pot of cold water while the fire is gradually turned up, and its going to take a hard-nosed approach to this and the citizens of this country have to realize we are heading for disaster (see Greek/Roman empires, Greece's current financial crisis), the bleeding has to stop and some things have to be done to stop the madness, but from my first hand experiences...legalizing & taxing drugs would make things worse after a happy short term increase in tax revenue and is not the answer

and we have to have help from Mexico, we have to do something to make the lucrative incentive for smuggling go away, whether thats us busting people and taking care of business, drone strikes on obvious targets in areas where innocents are injured, and harsh tactics on the ground
 
#61 ·
Zebra, what first-hand experience do you have regarding the legalization and taxation of drugs making more people use drugs, become addicted and generally make things worse after a happy short term? Cigarette consumption, while long-legal in this country has seen a steady decades-long decline in per capita use.
 
#81 ·
I deal with people that are on drugs EVERY night I work.
I deal with people EVERY night that tell me "I started with marijuana, then tried meth/coke/crack/etc"
I have teenagers, and sometimes adults, tell me they tried marijuana, but don't do it because they were afraid of it being illegal, but if it was legal they would do it pretty regularly
Teens and adults started doing K2 (for those that don't know, synthetic "replacement" for marijuana) then it became illegal. The people I've spoke with said they tried/do K2 since it was legal and marijuana was not. Hence, I say if its legalized we'll have more people trying/doing it.
When more people try it, more people get addicted to it. I think thats pretty well proven by the number of people that have tried drugs and are addicted now. Drug addicts have to get $$$ to sustain the habit. The overwhelming majority of our thefts/burgs/robberies are performed by people on dope. This will make things worse for us, the good guys, because its OUR stuff thats being stolen/damaged. Its OUR taxes that pay for taking care of these idiots from catching to incarceration. I don't think the increase in tax revenue from legal dope is worth what it will do to our society.
 
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#64 ·
i know about the 50' fence and 51' ladder argument, but didn't Israel build a pretty big wall to stem the amount of terrorist suicide bomb attacks, and didn't that work pretty well? As least, from what I have read, it brought it down to a negligible amount of what it was pre fence.

I know they had a tiny fraction of fence compared to what we would need for our border. I would have to believe someone has done the calculations to figure out how costly is the fence, what percent it would stop vs. what the cost is to the country for illegal activities (border crossing, deportation, drug, etc.).

My understanding was the cost of building and maintaining such a huge fence would be economically prohibitive, but wondering if anyone has figures.
 
#65 ·
My understanding was the cost of building and maintaining such a huge fence would be economically prohibitive, but wondering if anyone has figures.
It's $2M/mile times 6K miles = $12B total minus already built about 275 miles = about another $11.5B projected to fence the Mexican and Canadian borders. And remember, it's the Canadian border that is most porous to foreign terrorists.

Over, under, and through a fence including access points, there are ways that won't really seal the border.

Back to the OP
I can't speak for HG, but I work closely with a few guys that have taken contracts in these areas. One I know personally was in a serious fight near (outside of town, en route to an oil field) Laredo, Tx after being confronted by four armed men that stopped their vehicle. I've personally spoken with ranchers looking for contract security after being in a few bad situations. I can't get into the politics of it (because it's not something I have a lot of knowledge in) but they've asked for government help and not received what they've needed. I've trained with a few police officers and sheriff's deputies from border towns/counties as well out to El Paso.

Now, I'm not saying there are daily murders in border towns or that people are all hiring bodyguards, but there is a consistently growing concern. Bad things are happening more often on our side of the border and that scares people. The few officers I've spoken to about this seem concerned. The few ranchers I've spoken to seem concerned. The contractors I know what a lot of money, especially those crossing the border, as would I… but I'm just greedy. ;)

It's not exclusive information, it's common knowledge in certain areas.
"They're heere".
 
#73 ·
How many can our system support? As many as arrive.
That is a fallacy, but I'll need some time to dig up the info. It does not help the other parts of the world either. We cannot afford it.

Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM1YU-Ni_84

Here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265

Here: https://www.numbersusa.com/content/nusablog/beckr/september-30-2010/new-gumballs-video-immigration-wont-help-worlds-poor-tends-hurt-the

Here: https://www.numbersusa.com/content/resources/video/educational/immigration-world-poverty-and-gumballs-updated-2010.html

The WOD is a disaster for sure, but someone else pulled immigration into the discussion. We cannot afford the WOD.

Seal the darn borders, and issue SAW's to border residents.

I think Marriott should build a chain of retirement homes on the border, and issue Barrets and M4's to residents and pay bounties.
 
#74 ·
That is a fallacy, but I'll need some time to dig up the info.
It's simple supply and demand. The article the Richard linked to even mentions that the flow of illegal immigrants is slowing due to the economy. They'll keep coming as long as there is a market to support them. Once the market is gone, they'll slow or stop. Much like the flow of illegal drugs into the country. They flow will keep coming as long as there is a market. The WOD does nothing (save throwing addicts in jail) to address the demand side of the equation.
 
#75 ·
Don't you ever wonder if our government was actually in on allowing the drugs to flow into the country to justify the so called "War on Drugs".

There is a 1997 movie titled Wag the Dog. Before elections, a spin-doctor and a Hollywood producer join efforts to "fabricate" a war in order to cover-up a presidential sex scandal.
Wag the Dog (1997) - Trailer - YouTube
 
#78 ·
Look around it has been happening here for years.
Just not as many at one time. The grave yards are full of the dead for gang fighting over drugs.
Making it legal won't change it a bit either
 
#86 ·
We'll never know if we don't try. I think there is one thing we can ALL agree on - there's no easy solution for the WOD. However, we've given the current paradigm a very long run. Now it's time to try something new. Maybe legalize pot, and then carefully examine the results after two or three years. :icon_neutral:

-
 
#91 ·
What I mean is this; if a country with less resources, a more restrictive government, and a lack of creativity can keep citizens inside its borders, then why can't the greatest nation on earth keep criminals out? Man a post and repell assaults. Seems simple to me.
 
#93 ·
Well, first of all it is not even an analogy by any stretch of the imagination. The Berlin Wall was 96 miles long. It was meant to keep their people IN. And the reason why it worked was because they were a brutal regime that did not care for the life of its own citizens.
 
#99 ·
Congress critters from both parties are either opposed to stopping illegal immigration or are luke warm to it. Case in point: McCain, Teddy Kennedy and president George Bush teamed up and pushed for amnesty for illegal aliens. Few in congress are pressing the president to go after business owners who hire illegal aliens.
 
#100 ·
So..............Since this thread is about the Drug Cartels and the possibility of spill-over violence in the USA..........We don't need to discuss or cuss immigration in this thread. Did I get that correct? Now, having said that, it could be a topic and a new thread over in another sub-forum, especially if it was 2A related and the like.............Right?

So, yea, I was guilty and posted the gum ball videos, but I slapped my hands. Let's get back on focus here and if everyone wants to move to the new thread that someone will start, that could be fine. :yup:
 
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