Drug Wars....how long before we have stuff like this here?

This is a discussion on Drug Wars....how long before we have stuff like this here? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by ctr The border can be effectively controlled, with authorized access. Most are unwilling to do what is required to accomplish it. Americans ...

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Thread: Drug Wars....how long before we have stuff like this here?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    The border can be effectively controlled, with authorized access. Most are unwilling to do what is required to accomplish it. Americans don't have the stomach for it. If East Germany was able to severely limit illegal crossings for decades, any country can.
    These comments reflect no appreciation for the heritage of liberty over totalitarian states.
    Thankfully, Americans don't have the stomach for the death of their country in the rightfully shameful way of the abomination that was East Germany.
    For legal solutions under our Judeo-Christian heritage of liberty, first Afghanistan and now diving the dumpster of tyrannies that got their keister kicked? What next, to the PRC, DPRK, the religious fanatic states? Do you even recognize the call for socialism in your statement by the taxes necessary to accomplish such a border seal - trading partner relationships notwithstanding (East Germany was never a caplitalist country, remember?).
    No, Americans don't have the stomach because their ways and ours are a contradiction. To adopt their way is to destroy our own. As Ayn Rand says, "Contradictions don't exist, if you think you have one examine your premises, one of them is wrong".
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

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  3. #47
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalman View Post
    To give an example of how inventive drug traffickers can be and to help develop the point that the border can not be secured: I was in Nuevo Laredo last November working with some Mexican engineers. They took me behind the building (which nearly backs up to the 20 foot border fence) to show me where a few days before they watched packages of (assumed) drugs getting launched over the fence. A semi with a flat bed with side and a tarp backed up to the fence. The tarp was rolled back and a catapult was exposed. In a matter of a few minutes several large heavy packages were launched over the fence to a waiting truck on the US side. The tarp was put back in place and the truck pulled away. The bad guys also put a couple of bullet holes in the factory where my friends were watching from, just to let them know --- you saw nothing.
    To give an example for your example. Drone+ hellfire missile... done.

  4. #48
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    To give an example for your example. Drone+ hellfire missile... done.
    I hope that was sarcasm. If not let me walk you through this:
    1. The drone would have to have been following the truck and know that it was carrying drugs. If that was the case it could have been interdicted prior.
    2. If you mean to target the vehicles on the US side you have much more faith in our targeting systems being infallible. From manned acft to drones we have shot at the wrong targets many times inflicting non combatant causalities.
    3. Stopping one shipmet (we stop many every day and major shipments frequently) will not deter the drug trade. Neither would the deaths of the guys running the drugs. These cartels factor in losses. It is not a big deal for them.

    So, is that armchair sarcasm or bravado? I hope it is the former. The last thing we want is Homeland Security or DEA targeting vehicles in the US. And to re iterate...it won;t mean a damn thing how a shipment is stopped. They will just continue their operations regardless if you shot it up in Mexico or the US.

  5. #49
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    True that, suntzu. these things happen fast and with no warning. I can relate other inventive ways that drugs are transported across the border that just can not be effectively stopped. You can not prohibit things that people want and be successful in that prohibition --- just won't work.

  6. #50
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I hope that was sarcasm. If not let me walk you through this:
    1. The drone would have to have been following the truck and know that it was carrying drugs. If that was the case it could have been interdicted prior.
    2. If you mean to target the vehicles on the US side you have much more faith in our targeting systems being infallible. From manned acft to drones we have shot at the wrong targets many times inflicting non combatant causalities.
    3. Stopping one shipmet (we stop many every day and major shipments frequently) will not deter the drug trade. Neither would the deaths of the guys running the drugs. These cartels factor in losses. It is not a big deal for them.

    So, is that armchair sarcasm or bravado? I hope it is the former. The last thing we want is Homeland Security or DEA targeting vehicles in the US. And to re iterate...it won;t mean a damn thing how a shipment is stopped. They will just continue their operations regardless if you shot it up in Mexico or the US.

    O.K. you're right, let's just give up. Apparently we can't beat them. They are much smarter than we could possibily be. Let's legalize the drugs crimping the dealers style and see what kind of problems come from that.

    ... And oh by the way, I lived on the border (el paso) for alot of years and met some who were in the "business", none wore Superman capes or would be confused with being brain surgeons.

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    O.K. you're right, let's just give up. Apparently we can't beat them. They are much smarter than we could possibily be. Let's legalize the drugs crimping the dealers style and see what kind of problems come from that.
    Yeah, that's exactly what he was getting at. At least, that's what I got from his statement about the US Government not targeting American vehicles with drone attacks. Give up. If we can't bomb Americans, we ought to just give up.

    What sort of "problems" do you think would come from decriminalizing or legalizing drugs? Obviously, everyone in America would rush out and become drug addicts. Except you, of course. It's similar to the way that relaxing gun regulations causes increases in gun violence.
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  8. #52
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    Close the border ?? The gate has been left open too long already....read this.....the damage is too far gone......

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  9. #53
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    O.K. you're right, let's just give up. Apparently we can't beat them. They are much smarter than we could possibily be. Let's legalize the drugs crimping the dealers style and see what kind of problems come from that.

    ... And oh by the way, I lived on the border (el paso) for alot of years and met some who were in the "business", none wore Superman capes or would be confused with being brain surgeons.
    If you post something and you disagree with the response then at least try to make an intelligent reply. I never said the cartels were a bunch of Superman. In fact, they are like other successful organization. They are realistic in their goals and objectives, and set a course of action to meet those. They are designed to absorb certain loses such as drug shipments, arrest of their people and loss of aircraft and boats. You may have known some in the 'business' but you really do not understand how the operations work starting from the fields in S America and their distribution systems throughout Central and S America and Mexico.
    Your solution of lets use drones will look good in the news but would cause little damage to the cartel. In fact, it wold be easy for them to not be attacked by conducting business around 'civilians' for lack of a better word. I am sure that would play well in the news showing dead kids during a missile strike regardless what side of the border it was on.
    Back to the folks you know. Did it occur to you that they were not brain surgeon types becasue the leadership uses many as pawns? Unless you knew some of the higher ups.

  10. #54
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    Yeah, that's exactly what he was getting at. At least, that's what I got from his statement about the US Government not targeting American vehicles with drone attacks. Give up. If we can't bomb Americans, we ought to just give up.

    What sort of "problems" do you think would come from decriminalizing or legalizing drugs? Obviously, everyone in America would rush out and become drug addicts. Except you, of course. It's similar to the way that relaxing gun regulations causes increases in gun violence.
    No not everyone would rush out and become addicts. But cartels that have their business model destroyed are not going to sit idly by.

  11. #55
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    If you post something and you disagree with the response then at least try to make an intelligent reply. I never said the cartels were a bunch of Superman. In fact, they are like other successful organization. They are realistic in their goals and objectives, and set a course of action to meet those. They are designed to absorb certain loses such as drug shipments, arrest of their people and loss of aircraft and boats. You may have known some in the 'business' but you really do not understand how the operations work starting from the fields in S America and their distribution systems throughout Central and S America and Mexico.
    Your solution of lets use drones will look good in the news but would cause little damage to the cartel. In fact, it wold be easy for them to not be attacked by conducting business around 'civilians' for lack of a better word. I am sure that would play well in the news showing dead kids during a missile strike regardless what side of the border it was on.
    Back to the folks you know. Did it occur to you that they were not brain surgeon types becasue the leadership uses many as pawns? Unless you knew some of the higher ups.
    So apparently if I were to type larger amounts of words to make my point that would make me more intelligent? You must be a genius...

  12. #56
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    An interesting tidbit: When coming back in to the U.S. from Mexico I often get stopped on the American side for a nearly full blown inspection. I asked why once and the officer told me that the money is now so good in the drug business that they are getting guys like me to mule drugs in to the U.S. I'm a 57 year old white guy with gray hair.

    But interesting: The last time I went in to Mexico the Mexicans stopped me for an inspection and that had never happened before. I asked them why and got essentially the same answer, except instead of drugs going in to the U.S. they were looking for cash going back in to Mexico.

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    They need to put a damn and prevent the rio grande from exiting into the GULF of Mexico. That way the river gets larger and harder to cross. People don't realize that a lot of the river is wade-able.
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  14. #58
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    So apparently if I were to type larger amounts of words to make my point that would make me more intelligent? You must be a genius...
    OK, I will address your original idea about using drones and hell fire missiles in as few words as possible :

    It won't work and will kill innocent people

  15. #59
    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    As long as the Mexican Government sanctions production and distribution of drugs we don't stand a chance.

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  16. #60
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    this problem is a nasty multi-headed dragon

    legalizing may hurt some cartel operations...but I guarantee you they won't say "ok, let's start making stuffed animals to sell"

    legalizing will lead to more people trying drugs....and the more people trying drugs will lead to more addicts, the increase in addicts and the current addicts continuing to do drugs will still lead to people needing money to do their habit, which will continue to increase the amount of thefts/robberies/burglaries/etc that we have happening

    next is we need to take the gloves off to tackle this issue, the current plan won't work because its half-a.....well half-way done
    using drones to fire missiles will not be possible in some situations as suntzu said, but it sure as heck should be used when applicable, if a drone spots someone tossing packages of unknown type/origin across the fence that should be a target since its obvious they are putting something into our country illegally

    its a crime to enter our country illegally and for the most part its not being enforced, and when it is there are certain groups screaming discrimination....well... they are morons...people entered illegally...period, the Latino groups scream racism...but its not just persons born in Mexico, there are more OTM (Other Than Mexican) persons captured in Texas than Mexicans, its also a security issue (I wish I could go into further details on what we get trained on but I can't), we don't need to wait until the terrorists gain entry from our border and set off a Nuke, biological, or chemical attack

    its ridiculous that we sit back and allow people to come across out border unchecked, bringing in who knows what--products, drugs, disease, and then they demand we change our country/culture/lifestyle for them, they increase burdens in our hospitals (free health care paid for by you and me and I'm sick of it), schools (state budgets maxed out, our kids get screwed), LE/Fire/EMS, and other services

    we've been like the frog in the pot of cold water while the fire is gradually turned up, and its going to take a hard-nosed approach to this and the citizens of this country have to realize we are heading for disaster (see Greek/Roman empires, Greece's current financial crisis), the bleeding has to stop and some things have to be done to stop the madness, but from my first hand experiences...legalizing & taxing drugs would make things worse after a happy short term increase in tax revenue and is not the answer

    and we have to have help from Mexico, we have to do something to make the lucrative incentive for smuggling go away, whether thats us busting people and taking care of business, drone strikes on obvious targets in areas where innocents are injured, and harsh tactics on the ground
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