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Drug Wars....how long before we have stuff like this here?

This is a discussion on Drug Wars....how long before we have stuff like this here? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Zebra, what first-hand experience do you have regarding the legalization and taxation of drugs making more people use drugs, become addicted and generally make things ...

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Thread: Drug Wars....how long before we have stuff like this here?

  1. #61
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    Zebra, what first-hand experience do you have regarding the legalization and taxation of drugs making more people use drugs, become addicted and generally make things worse after a happy short term? Cigarette consumption, while long-legal in this country has seen a steady decades-long decline in per capita use.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig35seven View Post
    What border towns are you talking about?
    What is the "murder rate" your talking about? On the rise or fall (you didn't say)? By how much?

    If it's the "best kept secret in America" how are you privy to such exclusive information?
    I can't speak for HG, but I work closely with a few guys that have taken contracts in these areas. One I know personally was in a serious fight near (outside of town, en route to an oil field) Laredo, Tx after being confronted by four armed men that stopped their vehicle. I've personally spoken with ranchers looking for contract security after being in a few bad situations. I can't get into the politics of it (because it's not something I have a lot of knowledge in) but they've asked for government help and not received what they've needed. I've trained with a few police officers and sheriff's deputies from border towns/counties as well out to El Paso.

    Now, I'm not saying there are daily murders in border towns or that people are all hiring bodyguards, but there is a consistently growing concern. Bad things are happening more often on our side of the border and that scares people. The few officers I've spoken to about this seem concerned. The few ranchers I've spoken to seem concerned. The contractors I know what a lot of money, especially those crossing the border, as would I… but I'm just greedy. ;)

    It's not exclusive information, it's common knowledge in certain areas.
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  3. #63
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalman View Post
    Also, in the last several weeks about 70 people have been murdered in this drug violence in Mexico. Perspective: That's about 7 to 8 weeks worth on the South side of Chicago, or Baltimore. We can't seem to stop violence, why do we expect the Mexicans to be able to stop this stuff?
    Actually, in the last several weeks nearly 500 to 700 have been murdered due to cartel/drug violence. It averages close to 1,000 deaths per month, or 30+ deaths per day.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  4. #64
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    i know about the 50' fence and 51' ladder argument, but didn't Israel build a pretty big wall to stem the amount of terrorist suicide bomb attacks, and didn't that work pretty well? As least, from what I have read, it brought it down to a negligible amount of what it was pre fence.

    I know they had a tiny fraction of fence compared to what we would need for our border. I would have to believe someone has done the calculations to figure out how costly is the fence, what percent it would stop vs. what the cost is to the country for illegal activities (border crossing, deportation, drug, etc.).

    My understanding was the cost of building and maintaining such a huge fence would be economically prohibitive, but wondering if anyone has figures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boatman View Post
    My understanding was the cost of building and maintaining such a huge fence would be economically prohibitive, but wondering if anyone has figures.
    It's $2M/mile times 6K miles = $12B total minus already built about 275 miles = about another $11.5B projected to fence the Mexican and Canadian borders. And remember, it's the Canadian border that is most porous to foreign terrorists.

    Over, under, and through a fence including access points, there are ways that won't really seal the border.

    Back to the OP
    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    I can't speak for HG, but I work closely with a few guys that have taken contracts in these areas. One I know personally was in a serious fight near (outside of town, en route to an oil field) Laredo, Tx after being confronted by four armed men that stopped their vehicle. I've personally spoken with ranchers looking for contract security after being in a few bad situations. I can't get into the politics of it (because it's not something I have a lot of knowledge in) but they've asked for government help and not received what they've needed. I've trained with a few police officers and sheriff's deputies from border towns/counties as well out to El Paso.

    Now, I'm not saying there are daily murders in border towns or that people are all hiring bodyguards, but there is a consistently growing concern. Bad things are happening more often on our side of the border and that scares people. The few officers I've spoken to about this seem concerned. The few ranchers I've spoken to seem concerned. The contractors I know what a lot of money, especially those crossing the border, as would I… but I'm just greedy. ;)

    It's not exclusive information, it's common knowledge in certain areas.
    "They're heere".
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    Another reason to get serious about ending the quagmire that is the War on Drugs. Alcohol prohibition caused an increase in crime, why is it taboo to even discuss that the WOD might be enriching the cartels?
    Yeah, I agree 1,000%. I think William Randolph Hearst would indeed be proud that his 'reefer madness' has caused so much paranoia. His anti-hemp strategy certainly worked well.

    I honestly think that ALL parties involved (drug cartels, local LE, prison industry and the DEA) are inclined to maintain the WOD at current status. The WOD benefits all of those groups greatly.

    Very sad for the rest of us though.

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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard58 View Post
    Close the border ?? The gate has been left open too long already....read this.....the damage is too far gone......

    Census: More minority U.S. births than white now - CBS News

    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    legalizing may hurt some cartel operations...but I guarantee you they won't say "ok, let's start making stuffed animals to sell"

    legalizing will lead to more people trying drugs....and the more people trying drugs will lead to more addicts, the increase in addicts and the current addicts continuing to do drugs will still lead to people needing money to do their habit, which will continue to increase the amount of thefts/robberies/burglaries/etc that we have happening
    Zebra, what evidence do you have to support that claim?

    From Richard's article: "We remain in a dangerous period where those appealing to anti-immigration elements are fueling a divisiveness and hostility that might take decades to overcome."

    This is certainly demonstrated by several members of this thread, including Richard himself. So what if minority births outnumber white births? Can you honestly claim that saying "the damage is too far gone" is not racist?

    I wonder how many people who are screaming of closing the border have ever spent any significant amount of time in a country where, for the most part, simply owning a vehicle or possessing any form of education beyond primary school makes you one of the wealthiest people around; where people would give almost anything for a chance to make it to the US.

    Have you ever really considered that America is still, to millions--perhaps billions--of people around the world, a "shining city upon a hill," where the promise of a better life is a real, lifelong dream? Has it ever occurred to those of you who scream "Close the border," that, chances are, your ancestors were once a part of those "huddled masses" seeking a better life for your great-great-grandparents and ultimately you? And that, chances are, there were "native" Americans screaming that they should not be allowed to be here because with them will come crime, poverty, stolen jobs, drugs, etc? Should we then change the words etched onto the Statue of Liberty?

    ...and her name
    Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
    Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
    The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
    "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
    With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
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  8. #68
    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boatman View Post
    i know about the 50' fence and 51' ladder argument, but didn't Israel build a pretty big wall to stem the amount of terrorist suicide bomb attacks, and didn't that work pretty well? As least, from what I have read, it brought it down to a negligible amount of what it was pre fence.

    I know they had a tiny fraction of fence compared to what we would need for our border. I would have to believe someone has done the calculations to figure out how costly is the fence, what percent it would stop vs. what the cost is to the country for illegal activities (border crossing, deportation, drug, etc.).

    My understanding was the cost of building and maintaining such a huge fence would be economically prohibitive, but wondering if anyone has figures.
    Are you aware there are many miles of very high and very substantial fences that have already been constructed? There has also been a substantial increase of border agents patrolling those fences.

    Are the fences working? Yes.

    "The number of Border Patrol apprehensions declined 61% from 1,189,000 in 2005 to 723,840 in 2008 to 463,000 in 2010. The decrease in apprehensions may be due to a number of factors including changes in U.S. economic conditions and border enforcement efforts. Border apprehensions in 2010 were at their lowest level since 1972." (department of Homeland Security)
    "Confidence is food for the wise man but liquor for the fool"

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by rammerjammer View Post
    Shut down the borders. Easy to say, not so easy to accomplish in real life.

    There are so many facets to this dilemma but just saying legalize drugs or shut down the border are only platitudes.

    You show me a 50 foot fence and I'll show you a 51 foot ladder.
    Sell varmint licenses along the boarder!!!

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Sorry Hop, but I don't get what your point is.
    Simple; no matter the problem....RAISE TAXES!!

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    Zebra, what evidence do you have to support that claim?

    From Richard's article: "We remain in a dangerous period where those appealing to anti-immigration elements are fueling a divisiveness and hostility that might take decades to overcome."

    This is certainly demonstrated by several members of this thread, including Richard himself. So what if minority births outnumber white births? Can you honestly claim that saying "the damage is too far gone" is not racist?

    I wonder how many people who are screaming of closing the border have ever spent any significant amount of time in a country where, for the most part, simply owning a vehicle or possessing any form of education beyond primary school makes you one of the wealthiest people around; where people would give almost anything for a chance to make it to the US.

    Have you ever really considered that America is still, to millions--perhaps billions--of people around the world, a "shining city upon a hill," where the promise of a better life is a real, lifelong dream? Has it ever occurred to those of you who scream "Close the border," that, chances are, your ancestors were once a part of those "huddled masses" seeking a better life for your great-great-grandparents and ultimately you? And that, chances are, there were "native" Americans screaming that they should not be allowed to be here because with them will come crime, poverty, stolen jobs, drugs, etc? Should we then change the words etched onto the Statue of Liberty?
    We already have a legal means to immigrate to this country. People from other countries should use it.
    The people that are flocking here in droves are the poor and uneducated. Just how many of those people do you think our system can support?
    Opening the borders is a grand and noble idea on paper but there is a real cost associated with it. How long before our country looks just like the country they fled?
    I see it where I live already, many of those poor illegal immigrants don't assimilate, they turn once nice areas into areas that remind them of home. The intent of legal immigration with quotas was to allow people to re-locate here and become citizens at a rate that promotes assimilation. I could blindfold you and take you to parts of the city around here, remove the blindfold and you would swear you were in Tecate or Juarez.
    Enough is enough........I would be good if they locked it down tomorrow and said "Ok, if you're already here you're now a citizen but nobody else gets in under the wire".
    To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the crocodile, hoping he will eat you last - but eat you he will.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    We already have a legal means to immigrate to this country. People from other countries should use it.
    The people that are flocking here in droves are the poor and uneducated. Just how many of those people do you think our system can support?
    Opening the borders is a grand and noble idea on paper but there is a real cost associated with it. How long before our country looks just like the country they fled?
    I see it where I live already, many of those poor illegal immigrants don't assimilate, they turn once nice areas into areas that remind them of home. The intent of legal immigration with quotas was to allow people to re-locate here and become citizens at a rate that promotes assimilation. I could blindfold you and take you to parts of the city around here, remove the blindfold and you would swear you were in Tecate or Juarez.
    Enough is enough........I would be good if they locked it down tomorrow and said "Ok, if you're already here you're now a citizen but nobody else gets in under the wire".
    What is the legal means to immigrate? What is the process? Is is something that the average poor, uneducated person from anywhere else in the world would ever be able to afford/accomplish? I doubt it. If conditions in America ever did deteriorate to the conditions in Mexico or Africa or any number of 3rd world countries, would you do whatever you could to make a better life for yourself and your family? I would, and I suspect most others would do the same.

    How many can our system support? As many as arrive. I'm not wealthy by US standards, but if I wasn't breaking the law, I would hire an immigrant to work in my home. They would work for what I could afford to pay and still be better off than they were wherever they came from. Right there, government regulation is preventing a job being created. They wouldn't be stealing any job from an American because it would be a job that no American would do for the price I'm willing to pay.

    Of course there is a cost associated with opening the borders. We could afford the monetary costs if we weren't spending all our money on worthless social programs and fighting useless wars abroad. We must absorb the non-monetary costs if we are going to claim to be that "shining city."

    As far as immigrants failing to assimilate, as you claim, I say, so what? America is a land full of immigrants who have all made their homeland into the image of the America that they want to live in. That explains why Irish pubs are so popular here. Or how New York has survived this long with a China Town, Little Italy, etc. What you are describing is xenophobia, plain and simple. "How long before our country looks just like the country they fled?" You have a vision of what America should look like, and if your new neighbors are Mexican immigrants and they put up a Mexican flag, speak Spanish and play soccer in their front yard, you will decry the destruction of American culture, no matter if they are legal or not. But here's what no one wants to acknowledge: there is no such thing as American culture. With the exception of the native tribes that were here for thousands of years before Europeans started showing up and killing them with diseases and weapons, every American is an immigrant. The same things were said about the influx of Irish immigrants in the 19th century as are being said about the Mexicans today. And every time there has been a famine or war or other strife overseas, where do people turn?

    Do you think that might have something to do with the success of America over the past 200 or so years? A bunch of people leaving tyranny, poverty, hunger and suffering for the promise of economic freedom here? Maybe some correlation.
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  13. #73
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    How many can our system support? As many as arrive.
    That is a fallacy, but I'll need some time to dig up the info. It does not help the other parts of the world either. We cannot afford it.

    Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM1YU-Ni_84

    Here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...26727128068265

    Here: https://www.numbersusa.com/content/n...tends-hurt-the

    Here: https://www.numbersusa.com/content/r...ated-2010.html

    The WOD is a disaster for sure, but someone else pulled immigration into the discussion. We cannot afford the WOD.

    Seal the darn borders, and issue SAW's to border residents.

    I think Marriott should build a chain of retirement homes on the border, and issue Barrets and M4's to residents and pay bounties.


    The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins. ― The Journals of Kierkegaard

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock and Glock View Post
    That is a fallacy, but I'll need some time to dig up the info.
    It's simple supply and demand. The article the Richard linked to even mentions that the flow of illegal immigrants is slowing due to the economy. They'll keep coming as long as there is a market to support them. Once the market is gone, they'll slow or stop. Much like the flow of illegal drugs into the country. They flow will keep coming as long as there is a market. The WOD does nothing (save throwing addicts in jail) to address the demand side of the equation.
    "Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty

  15. #75
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    Don't you ever wonder if our government was actually in on allowing the drugs to flow into the country to justify the so called "War on Drugs".

    There is a 1997 movie titled Wag the Dog. Before elections, a spin-doctor and a Hollywood producer join efforts to "fabricate" a war in order to cover-up a presidential sex scandal.
    Wag the Dog (1997) - Trailer - YouTube
    "One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation."
    --Thomas B. Reed, American Attorney

    Second Amendment -- Established December 15, 1791 and slowly eroded ever since What happened to "..... shall not be infringed."

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