Drug Wars....how long before we have stuff like this here? - Page 6

Drug Wars....how long before we have stuff like this here?

This is a discussion on Drug Wars....how long before we have stuff like this here? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Moops If conditions in America ever did deteriorate to the conditions in Mexico or Africa or any number of 3rd world countries, ...

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  1. #76
    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    If conditions in America ever did deteriorate to the conditions in Mexico or Africa or any number of 3rd world countries, would you do whatever you could to make a better life for yourself and your family? I would, and I suspect most others would do the same.
    There is no doubt that our country is in worse shape now, partly because of the huge cost of social programs associated with illegal immigration, so yes, I would like to protect my way of life so myself and my family don't have to sneak into another country to have a better lifestyle when this one is ruined by unchecked immigration. I'm not a racist, I'm a realist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    How many can our system support? As many as arrive.
    Really?...I see from your profile that you are currently in the military. Based on my military experience I'm guessing that you pay little or no taxes and I'm good with that because I believe our military personnel are way under-paid, however; if you're not one of the guys that has to pay the bill it's real easy to say "Open the borders and let them all in, we can afford it". Between my wife and myself, together we pay over $3000.00 per month in taxes and at the end of the year I typically have to write a check because it's not enough. I'm tapped out, if you want to pay the cost that's great but don't ask me for more money.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    They would work for what I could afford to pay and still be better off than they were wherever they came from.
    That's kind of what slave owners said in the south before the civil war!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    We could afford the monetary costs if we weren't spending all our money on worthless social programs and fighting useless wars abroad.
    These worthless social programs are the same ones taking care of your illegal immigrants
    To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the crocodile, hoping he will eat you last - but eat you he will.
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  2. #77
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    Really?...I see from your profile that you are currently in the military. Based on my military experience I'm guessing that you pay little or no taxes and I'm good with that because I believe our military personnel are way under-paid, however; if you're not one of the guys that has to pay the bill it's real easy to say "Open the borders and let them all in, we can afford it". Between my wife and myself, together we pay over $3000.00 per month in taxes and at the end of the year I typically have to write a check because it's not enough. I'm tapped out, if you want to pay the cost that's great but don't ask me for more money.....
    I don't know what military you were in but I paid Federal taxes like everyone else unless in a Combat Zone. Depending what state you are in and your state of residencey you do or do not pay state tax. Since you included your wife in the tax equation, spouses pay taxes like everyone else. Little or no taxes...please

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    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Look around it has been happening here for years.
    Just not as many at one time. The grave yards are full of the dead for gang fighting over drugs.
    Making it legal won't change it a bit either

  4. #79
    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I don't know what military you were in but I paid Federal taxes like everyone else unless in a Combat Zone. Depending what state you are in and your state of residencey you do or do not pay state tax. Since you included your wife in the tax equation, spouses pay taxes like everyone else. Little or no taxes...please
    I didn't say tax wasn't withheld, but when you get it ALL back at the end of the year in the form of a refund you end up paying little or no taxes. If you're married and in the military and your wife isn't working or has a job at the mall you're not going to get much of a tax bite, if any. According to my tax software for the last couple of years, only 2% of the population pays more taxes than I do based on the percentage of my gross wages.
    I think I have a right to moan when someone starts talking about doing stuff that will result in me having to pay even more.
    If that person is in the 2% of the population that is tagged even harder than me and still wants to give more than all I can say is, I respect his passion for humanity!
    To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the crocodile, hoping he will eat you last - but eat you he will.
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  5. #80
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    I didn't say tax wasn't withheld, but when you get it ALL back at the end of the year in the form of a refund you end up paying little or no taxes. If you're married and in the military and your wife isn't working or has a job at the mall you're not going to get much of a tax bite, if any. According to my tax software for the last couple of years, only 2% of the population pays more taxes than I do based on the percentage of my gross wages.
    I think I have a right to moan when someone starts talking about doing stuff that will result in me having to pay even more.
    If that person is in the 2% of the population that is tagged even harder than me and still wants to give more than all I can say is, I respect his passion for humanity!
    I still don't know what military you are in but as far back as I can remember I got a refund check but never even close to the amount of tax money that was taken out. Now I am only going back about till when I was an E-5. As an E-9 I a can assure you that I paid plenty of tax.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Zebra, what first-hand experience do you have regarding the legalization and taxation of drugs making more people use drugs, become addicted and generally make things worse after a happy short term? Cigarette consumption, while long-legal in this country has seen a steady decades-long decline in per capita use.
    I deal with people that are on drugs EVERY night I work.
    I deal with people EVERY night that tell me "I started with marijuana, then tried meth/coke/crack/etc"
    I have teenagers, and sometimes adults, tell me they tried marijuana, but don't do it because they were afraid of it being illegal, but if it was legal they would do it pretty regularly
    Teens and adults started doing K2 (for those that don't know, synthetic "replacement" for marijuana) then it became illegal. The people I've spoke with said they tried/do K2 since it was legal and marijuana was not. Hence, I say if its legalized we'll have more people trying/doing it.
    When more people try it, more people get addicted to it. I think thats pretty well proven by the number of people that have tried drugs and are addicted now. Drug addicts have to get $$$ to sustain the habit. The overwhelming majority of our thefts/burgs/robberies are performed by people on dope. This will make things worse for us, the good guys, because its OUR stuff thats being stolen/damaged. Its OUR taxes that pay for taking care of these idiots from catching to incarceration. I don't think the increase in tax revenue from legal dope is worth what it will do to our society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    Zebra, what evidence do you have to support that claim?

    From Richard's article: "We remain in a dangerous period where those appealing to anti-immigration elements are fueling a divisiveness and hostility that might take decades to overcome."

    This is certainly demonstrated by several members of this thread, including Richard himself. So what if minority births outnumber white births? Can you honestly claim that saying "the damage is too far gone" is not racist?

    I wonder how many people who are screaming of closing the border have ever spent any significant amount of time in a country where, for the most part, simply owning a vehicle or possessing any form of education beyond primary school makes you one of the wealthiest people around; where people would give almost anything for a chance to make it to the US.

    Have you ever really considered that America is still, to millions--perhaps billions--of people around the world, a "shining city upon a hill," where the promise of a better life is a real, lifelong dream? Has it ever occurred to those of you who scream "Close the border," that, chances are, your ancestors were once a part of those "huddled masses" seeking a better life for your great-great-grandparents and ultimately you? And that, chances are, there were "native" Americans screaming that they should not be allowed to be here because with them will come crime, poverty, stolen jobs, drugs, etc? Should we then change the words etched onto the Statue of Liberty?
    my reply is in a PM, this is taking away from the original thread topic
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  8. #83
    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I still don't know what military you are in but as far back as I can remember I got a refund check but never even close to the amount of tax money that was taken out. Now I am only going back about till when I was an E-5. As an E-9 I a can assure you that I paid plenty of tax.
    I was in the Air Force, not sure why that matters, and yes, taxes were withheld from my check. The point is, almost half of the population pays no taxes, many pay little in tax, some pay their "fair share", and others like me get screwed.

    My post was not intended to suggest that military people don't pay taxes.....I just happened to respond to a post that was written by someone I believe is currently in the military and I may be wrong but I "ASSUMED" he wasn't greatly compensated for that and therefore didn't have a huge tax bite.
    To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the crocodile, hoping he will eat you last - but eat you he will.
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  9. #84
    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    I deal with people that are on drugs EVERY night I work.
    I deal with people EVERY night that tell me "I started with marijuana, then tried meth/coke/crack/etc"
    I have teenagers, and sometimes adults, tell me they tried marijuana, but don't do it because they were afraid of it being illegal, but if it was legal they would do it pretty regularly
    Teens and adults started doing K2 (for those that don't know, synthetic "replacement" for marijuana) then it became illegal. The people I've spoke with said they tried/do K2 since it was legal and marijuana was not. Hence, I say if its legalized we'll have more people trying/doing it.
    When more people try it, more people get addicted to it. I think thats pretty well proven by the number of people that have tried drugs and are addicted now. Drug addicts have to get $$$ to sustain the habit. The overwhelming majority of our thefts/burgs/robberies are performed by people on dope. This will make things worse for us, the good guys, because its OUR stuff thats being stolen/damaged. Its OUR taxes that pay for taking care of these idiots from catching to incarceration. I don't think the increase in tax revenue from legal dope is worth what it will do to our society.
    I don't believe that by legalizing drugs will make more people desire to take them. I've come to the belief that your drug chooses you. There are those who like alcohol others like marijuana and so on. The weed people don't seem to care for the speedy drugs like meth and vice versa. I don't believe by making these legal is going to get me and my wife snorting coke lines or sitting around passing a joint. I also know it wouldn't affect anyone else in my family. However, I do have a few relatives that are alcoholics, which I believe is the most addictive drug along with cigarettes. Also the Oxycontin pain killer along with other popular prescribed meds. Doctors are the biggest drug dealers in this country getting paid to administer them. The profits from drugs of the big pharmaceutical companies are huge.

    It would be a blessing if the alcoholics and Oxycotin users would switch over to using marijuana. They would be far better off and so would the rest of society. imo
    "Confidence is food for the wise man but liquor for the fool"

  10. #85
    Member Array Moops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    There is no doubt that our country is in worse shape now, partly because of the huge cost of social programs associated with illegal immigration, so yes, I would like to protect my way of life so myself and my family don't have to sneak into another country to have a better lifestyle when this one is ruined by unchecked immigration. I'm not a racist, I'm a realist.
    You may have no doubt that our country is in worse shape now, but that doesn't mean that it is true. You certainty about something doesn't necessarily reflect the facts. The vagueness of that statement notwithstanding, and despite the recent recession, wages are generally higher now than ever, the standard of living is certainly the highest in history, and for the most part, Americans are doing pretty well. If you are indeed a realist, you have to see that's true.

    To say that conditions here are getting worse because of illegal immigration is simply not true. Do some illegal immigrants take advantage of "free" healthcare, social security, etc? Sure. But so do many, many native and naturalized Americans.

    I stand by my contention that the fear of illegal immigration is rooted, if not in racism, then certainly in xenophobia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    I see from your profile that you are currently in the military. Based on my military experience I'm guessing that you pay little or no taxes and I'm good with that because I believe our military personnel are way under-paid, however; if you're not one of the guys that has to pay the bill it's real easy to say "Open the borders and let them all in, we can afford it". Between my wife and myself, together we pay over $3000.00 per month in taxes and at the end of the year I typically have to write a check because it's not enough. I'm tapped out, if you want to pay the cost that's great but don't ask me for more money.....
    When I enlisted almost 14 years ago, I was probably not paying income taxes (however, I've been contributing to social security and medicare since I was 16--two programs that will likely not be around by the time I'm old enough to use them). I don't remember what I was taking home, but I assume that as an E2 with a family I was probably in a pretty low tax bracket. However, I am currently sitting in the 18% range for federal income taxes. Add in Medicare, Social Security and state sales tax (I am lucky to live in a state without state income tax), and I am paying around 30% to the government. After this year's tax refund (which was a bit larger than normal due to having spent half of last year in a combat zone), I ended up paying around 10% in federal income taxes. When you add SS, Medicare and State tax, my effective tax rate last year was about 23%. So, I do pay taxes. But thanks for your concern.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    That's kind of what slave owners said in the south before the civil war!
    Is it? I don't know. I wasn't around back then, but paying someone less than $7.67 an hour when their only other option is making around that much per week is hardly cruel. Forcing them to work against their will is a different story, but that's not what I said. I was referring to employing someone who voluntarily came to this country to seek a better life for themselves. But thanks for trying to re-frame my argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    These worthless social programs are the same ones taking care of your illegal immigrants
    Really? What are your sources? There are many economists who argue that there is a net gain to the overall economy due to illegal immigration (or that it's at least a wash). While some do take advantage of social services, overall they put more in (via the payment of taxes and the purchase of goods and services) than they take out. Additionally, the largest burden on public services from illegal immigrants is from public schools. That's a cost that I think most people would agree is acceptable--if they're being intellectually honest.
    "Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty

  11. #86
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty901 View Post
    Look around it has been happening here for years.
    Just not as many at one time. The grave yards are full of the dead for gang fighting over drugs.
    Making it legal won't change it a bit either

    We'll never know if we don't try. I think there is one thing we can ALL agree on - there's no easy solution for the WOD. However, we've given the current paradigm a very long run. Now it's time to try something new. Maybe legalize pot, and then carefully examine the results after two or three years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    I deal with people that are on drugs EVERY night I work.
    I deal with people EVERY night that tell me "I started with marijuana, then tried meth/coke/crack/etc"
    I have teenagers, and sometimes adults, tell me they tried marijuana, but don't do it because they were afraid of it being illegal, but if it was legal they would do it pretty regularly
    Teens and adults started doing K2 (for those that don't know, synthetic "replacement" for marijuana) then it became illegal. The people I've spoke with said they tried/do K2 since it was legal and marijuana was not. Hence, I say if its legalized we'll have more people trying/doing it.
    When more people try it, more people get addicted to it. I think thats pretty well proven by the number of people that have tried drugs and are addicted now. Drug addicts have to get $$$ to sustain the habit. The overwhelming majority of our thefts/burgs/robberies are performed by people on dope. This will make things worse for us, the good guys, because its OUR stuff thats being stolen/damaged. Its OUR taxes that pay for taking care of these idiots from catching to incarceration. I don't think the increase in tax revenue from legal dope is worth what it will do to our society.
    Anecdote is not proof. I have talked to literally thousands of dopers, none of whom were swayed one way or the other by legality or lack thereof when they began using.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    my reply is in a PM, this is taking away from the original thread topic
    Sorry, never got your PM.
    "Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    These comments reflect no appreciation for the heritage of liberty over totalitarian states.
    Thankfully, Americans don't have the stomach for the death of their country in the rightfully shameful way of the abomination that was East Germany.
    For legal solutions under our Judeo-Christian heritage of liberty, first Afghanistan and now diving the dumpster of tyrannies that got their keister kicked? What next, to the PRC, DPRK, the religious fanatic states? Do you even recognize the call for socialism in your statement by the taxes necessary to accomplish such a border seal - trading partner relationships notwithstanding (East Germany was never a caplitalist country, remember?).
    No, Americans don't have the stomach because their ways and ours are a contradiction. To adopt their way is to destroy our own. As Ayn Rand says, "Contradictions don't exist, if you think you have one examine your premises, one of them is wrong".
    Wow, you sure did take liberties with what I wrote. Way to spin a statement into an outright misrepresentation. Nice job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    Wow, you sure did take liberties with what I wrote. Way to spin a statement into an outright misrepresentation. Nice job.
    Actually I kinda agree with Pistology on this one. In essence you said Americans don't have the stomach to employ methods that East Germany did. The wall was put up to also keep their folks IN. That was only part of a police state that they ran.
    I fail to see how you can expect anyone to take your post any differently.

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