Drug Wars....how long before we have stuff like this here?

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  1. #91
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    What I mean is this; if a country with less resources, a more restrictive government, and a lack of creativity can keep citizens inside its borders, then why can't the greatest nation on earth keep criminals out? Man a post and repell assaults. Seems simple to me.

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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    Wow, you sure did take liberties with what I wrote. Way to spin a statement into an outright misrepresentation. Nice job.
    You said, "The border can be effectively controlled, with authorized access. Most are unwilling to do what is required to accomplish it. Americans don't have the stomach for it. If East Germany was able to severely limit illegal crossings for decades, any country can."

    Alarms go off when fortress-America folks rationalize tyranny with tyranny. If all you're saying is that "it can be done", I'm saying "don't" because there's no legitimate precedent even though there are plenty of illegitimate ones that our country proudly stands against. We aren't them. If freedom dies here, there's nowhere to go.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    What I mean is this; if a country with less resources, a more restrictive government, and a lack of creativity can keep citizens inside its borders, then why can't the greatest nation on earth keep criminals out? Man a post and repell assaults. Seems simple to me.
    Well, first of all it is not even an analogy by any stretch of the imagination. The Berlin Wall was 96 miles long. It was meant to keep their people IN. And the reason why it worked was because they were a brutal regime that did not care for the life of its own citizens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    You said, "The border can be effectively controlled, with authorized access. Most are unwilling to do what is required to accomplish it. Americans don't have the stomach for it. If East Germany was able to severely limit illegal crossings for decades, any country can."

    Alarms go off when fortress-America folks rationalize tyranny with tyranny. If all you're saying is that "it can be done", I'm saying "don't" because there's no legitimate precedent even though there are plenty of illegitimate ones that our country proudly stands against. We aren't them. If freedom dies here, there's nowhere to go.
    I'll agree with you to a point. However, once a free nation has no standards for citizenship, or control of access into and out of its borders, that country will cease to exist. Granted, the US is not there yet, so the citizens tolerate a certain amount of illegal crossings, border violence, and the inevitable crime that comes with a mostly open border. The question for Americans is will they allow their country to fall/fail for its ideals, or will it take necessary steps to preserve itself so that it might once again rise to a higher standard?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    What I mean is this; if a country with less resources, a more restrictive government, and a lack of creativity can keep citizens inside its borders, then why can't the greatest nation on earth keep criminals out? Man a post and repell assaults. Seems simple to me.
    I agree that this is the only legitimate purpose of immigration law. This is the problem: criminals are even more resourceful than honest, productive job-seekers. So even if we could identify criminals before they cross the border, they have a leg up in evading capture there. If you're talking about shooting drug runners, then I stand on my previous statements.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    The question for Americans is will they allow their country to fall/fail for its ideals, or will it take necessary steps to preserve itself so that it might once again rise to a higher standard?
    Lincoln asked that great question rhetorically at Gettysburg.
    If this country has to fall or fail, its ideals are the only ones worth its destruction. No compromise with tyranny. Our laws against violence work for us armed citizens.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  8. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    There are many economists who argue that there is a net gain to the overall economy due to illegal immigration (or that it's at least a wash). While some do take advantage of social services, overall they put more in (via the payment of taxes and the purchase of goods and services) than they take out. Additionally, the largest burden on public services from illegal immigrants is from public schools. That's a cost that I think most people would agree is acceptable--if they're being intellectually honest.
    Where I live, the state estimates that it cost almost 10k per year per student for public school. If an illegal family has 4-5 kids that's 40k-50k per year for that one family. Multiply that by at least 12 years of school and $480,000 to $600,000. That's only 1 family with 5 kids.
    Do you really believe the parents of those kids will ever contribute even a fraction of that cost in taxes? I must be intellectually dishonest or maybe I'm just a racist, as I object to myself or my children having to bear the burden of educating and caring for all of the disadvantaged people from other countries.
    Surely even you must recognize some limits to our generosity. In your mind, could you ever envision a time when we might have to say, "Ok, we can't take anymore right now"?
    To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the crocodile, hoping he will eat you last - but eat you he will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    If this country has to fall or fail, its ideals are the only ones worth its destruction.
    This is the essence of what I've been trying to say. It seems that many people here have different ideas than me about what the ideals of this nation are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    Where I live, the state estimates that it cost almost 10k per year per student for public school. If an illegal family has 4-5 kids that's 40k-50k per year for that one family. Multiply that by at least 12 years of school and $480,000 to $600,000. That's only 1 family with 5 kids.
    Do you really believe the parents of those kids will ever contribute even a fraction of that cost in taxes? I must be intellectually dishonest or maybe I'm just a racist, as I object to myself or my children having to bear the burden of educating and caring for all of the disadvantaged people from other countries.
    Surely even you must recognize some limits to our generosity. In your mind, could you ever envision a time when we might have to say, "Ok, we can't take anymore right now"?
    First, I wasn't saying that every family will return every penny of what they've taken out of the system through taxes. I said through taxes, and the purchase of goods and services, the net effect of illegal immigration is nearly zero. There are countless legal American families of every creed and color that fit the description of the hypothetical illegal family you imagined. Would you rather those people--American or otherwise--remain uneducated and unable to speak English? If ever there was a way for immigrants to assimilate, it would be by attending American schools. When I said intellectually dishonest, I meant that if there is any social service that is worth spending money on, education is it. It is the surest way to circumvent those problems which anti-immigration advocates decry about illegal immigration.

    Second, no, I can't envision a time when we might have to say "we can't take anymore right now," because I have a rudimentary understanding of economics. The flow of illegal immigrants into this country has slowed in recent years because of the recession. Labor is a commodity just the same as oil, beef, or beer. The more of it there is available, the lower its price. If the rate is slowing, then it means we are approaching a point where the price is low enough that fewer people are finding it worthwhile to come here illegally. Yet our country hasn't fallen apart. Even as our economy picks up and, presumably, immigration follows, there will still be a point where the unskilled labor jobs that most illegal immigrants fill will pay too little to make it worthwhile to immigrate.
    "Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty

  10. #99
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    Congress critters from both parties are either opposed to stopping illegal immigration or are luke warm to it. Case in point: McCain, Teddy Kennedy and president George Bush teamed up and pushed for amnesty for illegal aliens. Few in congress are pressing the president to go after business owners who hire illegal aliens.

  11. #100
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    So..............Since this thread is about the Drug Cartels and the possibility of spill-over violence in the USA..........We don't need to discuss or cuss immigration in this thread. Did I get that correct? Now, having said that, it could be a topic and a new thread over in another sub-forum, especially if it was 2A related and the like.............Right?

    So, yea, I was guilty and posted the gum ball videos, but I slapped my hands. Let's get back on focus here and if everyone wants to move to the new thread that someone will start, that could be fine.
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  12. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    First, I wasn't saying that every family will return every penny of what they've taken out of the system through taxes. I said through taxes, and the purchase of goods and services, the net effect of illegal immigration is nearly zero.
    I can accept the pro illegal immigration argument if it's based on humanitarian reasons, after all, who can be against helping our fellow man even if they are from another country, however; to say that the cost of illegal immigration to the host country is nearly zero is absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    There are countless legal American families of every creed and color that fit the description of the hypothetical illegal family you imagined.
    The difference is they are here and they are legal. Yes, we should take care of our own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    Would you rather those people--American or otherwise--remain uneducated and unable to speak English?
    No.....I would prefer that they apply and immigrate legally so we can ensure they are properly vetted and have the means to support themselves and contribute to our country. This isn't a policy that just us ugly Americans have in place. My sister in-law and her husband recently moved to Ireland to run a church. They were both required to sign papers swearing that they would not seek employment there and the church had to "sponsor" them and agree to support them.
    My employer has 2 facilities in Mexico. People from our facility in the states must obtain a work permit from the Mexican Government even if they are only there for a day or so. Just saying....Many other countries are not as gracious as us but nobody ever complains about them or refers to them as racists.
    Anyway...this was fun. You are obviously passionate about your position!
    Thank you for your continued service to our country, stay safe on your deployment.
    To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the crocodile, hoping he will eat you last - but eat you he will.
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  13. #102
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    Sorry...Rock and Glock..just saw your post.
    To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the crocodile, hoping he will eat you last - but eat you he will.
    Ronald Reagan

  14. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    Really?...I see from your profile that you are currently in the military. Based on my military experience I'm guessing that you pay little or no taxes and I'm good with that because I believe our military personnel are way under-paid, however; if you're not one of the guys that has to pay the bill it's real easy to say "Open the borders and let them all in, we can afford it". Between my wife and myself, together we pay over $3000.00 per month in taxes and at the end of the year I typically have to write a check because it's not enough. I'm tapped out, if you want to pay the cost that's great but don't ask me for more money.....These worthless social programs are the same ones taking care of your illegal immigrants
    Military wages have been federally taxed since the mid 1950's.

    From the amount of taxes you and your wife are paying it appears you must be doing something wrong with your income if you are tapped out.

    It is possible some of the social programs America has are problematic the majority are not worthless. We need to keep in mind that for the most part America has no real commodities. Meaning America (the government) does not have anything to sell to others to generate income so it comes from taxes. America decided to do things to help the citizens via social programs and other avenues which comes with a price tag. Yes America could do away with all its social programs but to what end.

    Social security, medicare, food stamps, unemployment and the many other social programs are not Utopia and will not make anyone rich for receiving them. America used to be more about caring for others and it is rapidly turning into the heck with anyone else I'm "set" and can provide for myself and family. Downfall to that mindset is one day you are "set" and the next you are in need of the worthless social programs. Funny thing with life, at time when it gets to the fork in the road it takes the unpaved dark disastrous road rather than the paved well lit one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doghandler View Post
    Legalize pot!
    Or they could do it like China did ; the punishment in China for possessing or smuggling illegal drugs, is the death penalty. In many countries, it's 30 yrs , in some of the worse prisons in the world. Some Americans have gone to China, hiding a bit of pot in their baggage, thinking it would be "no big deal". Then the State Dept was pleading with China to send them back to be put in a US prison rather than putting them to death.

    The USA, is one of the more liberal countries. However, in many of those other countries, they don't "control" medicine like it is here. In China, you walk into the store.... and buy antibiotics, viagra, anti-depressant, pain killer or whatever you need off the shelf. In some countries they are not is exclusive stores, but on the shelves of general stores. And, in some places.. they can be bought at open markets or off street vendors. The USA and other Western Countries, regulate medications more than anywhere else.

    That always seemed like a strange dichotomy to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Anecdote is not proof. I have talked to literally thousands of dopers, none of whom were swayed one way or the other by legality or lack thereof when they began using.
    I think it was pretty good proof considering I was asked in this thread, based on my experiences, why I was saying what I said. Its based on first-hand information from the very people that would be trying the drugs.

    You've talked to thousands of dopers, none of whom were swayed by the legalities....they're dopers, of course they don't care about the legality. What I stated was people that hadn't tried (or did once) drugs telling me that if it was legal that they would try it. They were not dopers. Big difference in the two situations.

    On the topic of the OP "how long before we have stuff like this here?"....approximately 2/3 of the shootings here (our city) are gang related.... almost all of them are gangs that are sub-sets of the drug cartels or some sort of affiliation.....I say its already here but our society dismisses it too easily
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