Chris Hayes: I'm 'Uncomfortable' Calling Fallen Military 'Heroes'

This is a discussion on Chris Hayes: I'm 'Uncomfortable' Calling Fallen Military 'Heroes' within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; The fallen vs. the TelePrompTer reader. Simple Choice. One defends , the other pretends....

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Thread: Chris Hayes: I'm 'Uncomfortable' Calling Fallen Military 'Heroes'

  1. #46
    Member Array Sigsi Paige's Avatar
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    The fallen vs. the TelePrompTer reader.

    Simple Choice.

    One defends , the other pretends.
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  3. #47
    Distinguished Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Take a deep breath here and note that Chris Hayes is making a valid and important point. It is a cold, real fact that the word "hero" is used to whip up American fervor for overseas combat.

    Especially today, Memorial Day, we honor our fallen troops. And, we can honor them in a number of ways. One way - the traditional way - is to visit a cemetery and place flowers on the grave of a soldier. That's a fine and fitting thing to do.

    Another way to honor our fallen is to do what you can in order to ensure that the only time we put our brave men and women into harm's way is only when absolutely necessary. That means we need people like Chris Hayes who have the courage to question the words we use and the way we define "patriotism."

    He's really correct on this. If every person who signs up for the military is automatically a "hero," then the word has little meaning. It perforce becomes a rhetorical chip on the shoulder: "I say all soldiers are heroes and anybody who disagrees is an enemy!"

    When I hear the word "hero," I think of Audi Murphy. He meets the standard no matter how you define it. Above and beyond the call of duty.

    We should not be constrained to celebrate everybody who shows up for work and does their dang job properly. That's called "being responsible" and "displaying integrity." And I recognize and salute that. I acknowledge those who've died in IED attacks and suicide bombings, and I nod my head to the 7-11 clerks and gas station attendants who risk mortal injury every day on the job.

    In Amazon and Walmart warehouses around the country, we have men and women working long shifts without air conditioning for minimum wage and zero benefits, just so we can have a Dremel drill delivered on our doorstep for 10 percent off. I respect these people and want them to succeed and realize their potential as human beings. Do I also have to call them "heroes"? The point is debatable and right on to Chris Hayes for having the guts to say something most people would be to scared to broach over the dinner table - let alone on national television.

    Yes, we are conflicted and divided as a nation. One tribe yells "boo-yah" and "America - kick-ass" and if you don't start yelling and clapping with them then you are not of the tribe. The other tribe wants to know what we're doing and why we're doing it and wants to be sure that any death in combat is truly demanded by our circumstances. That's also a patriotic thing to do and it honors and respects our men and women in uniform.

    Happy Memorial Day, CCers.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  4. #48
    Ex Member Array RayBar's Avatar
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    They are hereos,We know their heroes, despite what traitors like chris hayes say. Far to many commies getting away with saying and doing things to denegrate our Country.Its a big world chris,if you know someplace better,I'm sure we can get you on a plane out of our Country.
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  5. #49
    Senior Member Array NH_Esau's Avatar
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    Shockwave,
    I completely understand your point, but respectfully disagree. A serviceman/woman who dies at home in a training accident, surrounded by spent brass next to a downed chopper, fragged in Kuwait by a US soldier who happens to be a Muslim extremist, blown up by an IED, or shot from behind in an Afghan ministry building by someone he was trying to help is a hero. I know too many who have died in these and very similar instances. Every flag draped over their caskets and then folded to be presented to their loved ones covered a hero, and to say otherwise is fighting words.

    All their deeds of heroism aren't equal, and some of them aren't heroes on the scale of York, Murphy, or Crandall, but they are all heroes nonetheless.

    Unlike the majority who never qualified or volunteered to serve, unlike the foppish lords who but for the vile guns would've been valiant soldiers, they raised their hands and swore to support and defend something greater than themselves.

    I'm with you 100% on avoiding unending and undeclared wars, and I for one believe if we can't get the guts to declare a war and then impose sacrifice in the way of war taxes on the folks back home, we ought not be sending us out to kill and get killed.

    But to compare them to a 7-11 clerk? Shame.
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  6. #50
    Senior Member Array Herknav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    So yes, many people being honored on Memorial day are heroes. However, HIS point is that some fallen servicemen are not heroes, which is somewhat logically, although maybe still disagreeable. Why he is arguing this point on Memorial Day is another story.
    Yes, this is what he said. In your post earlier, you tried to make it sound like he was saying that joining the military =/= hero. My point was that he never said anything about joining the military. He specifically spoke of those who had died. Now that you've changed your wording, we are in agreement about what he said.

    Are you a hero?
    Most emphatically, "NO!" Even if I were, this day would not be about me. Why would you even ask such a question?
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  7. #51
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    This pastey faced weenie said, "Um, I, I, ah, back sorry, um, I think it's interesting because I think it is very difficult to talk about the war dead and the fallen without invoking valor, without invoking the words "heroes." Um, and, ah, ah, why do I feel so comfortable [sic] about the word "hero"? I feel comfortable, ah, uncomfortable, about the word because it seems to me that it is so rhetorically proximate to justifications for more war. Um, and, I don't want to obviously desecrate or disrespect memory of anyone that's fallen, and obviously there are individual circumstances in which there is genuine, tremendous heroism: hail of gunfire, rescuing fellow soldiers and things like that." Hayes is comfortable saying 'My Parents Are Totally Amazing, Heroic Figures'. Really?

    So some people in here think that someone who is delivering supplys and ammo to troops and is either killed or mangled by a IED is NOT a hero? Someone who is trying to help innocent civilians (women and children and old) and is sniped is NOT a hero? I guess all of us have our own idea what a hero is....irregardless of what a "dictionary" says.

    I have my "bug a boos" about the misuse of words, like Bill O'Reilly and his Pinheads and Patriots section. When he calls one who entertains the troops or raises money for Wounded Warriors, I agree calling them Patriots, but when he sticks that label on anyone who does anything that is not Pinheaded, it cheapens the meaning to me.

    So I will take offense by this Liberal /Progressive weenie who is "uncomfortable" with calling those who die in American conflicts "heroes", but is very comfortable calling his parents who did no more than what parents should "heroes".
    His parents raised a piece of crap like him they are NOT heroes by any stretch of the imagination to me. My parents were good parents, but not heroes for being good parents. My father who fought in WWII in the Pacific and had 7 ships sunk from under him and bobbed around in the water while sharks ate his fellow sailors IS a hero to me for that.
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  8. #52
    Member Array JDKinman's Avatar
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    Shockwave, you do not get it.

    I would invite you to go with any VFW or American Legion honor detail next Memorial Day and stand with them as they present folded flags to newly widowed wives, mothers who lost their son or daughter, children whose mom or dad will never greet them at the door again.

    Then look around the detail. In ours, you'll see a WWII veteran--a Marine who fought in the islands of the South Pacific. An active duty Marine pushes the WWII Marine in his wheelchair so that he can accompany us. A couple of years ago, you would've seen another WWII vet who walked across Europe. You'll see a Korean War vet--an Air Force bombadier who had been shot down twice, losing his buddies and aircrew both times. He is a two-time survivor and after healing up in a Tokyo Hospital, he volunteered to go back to his bomber group.

    Instead, the newly formed Air Force sent him home with a Silver Star and two Purple Hearts, among other commendations.

    You'll see veterans from conflicts and action in Southeast Asia, Grenada, the Gulf War, Panama, El Salvador/Central America, Somalia and north Africa and the Middle East.

    Everytime you present a flag. . . hear the bugle. . . . hear the gunfire salute. . . you look at the vets next to you and you all think the same thing--"That could've been MY wife or mother or daughter receiving this flag."

    I'm trying to remember, exactly, the last time a group of Amazon warehouse workers crashed during a night-training exercise and either drowned in the cold Atlantic ocean or burned to death on a desolate desert floor somewhere. I was tempted to google for Walmart or 7-11 clerks who were minding their stockrooms and warehouses when incoming mortars rained on them, wiping most of their other stockroom workers and cashiers into unidentifiable pieces.

    Perhaps your google techniques work better than mine, sir, but I am still no-joy in finding any such incidents.

    Aside from a job in LE, of which many vets come back to the world and pursue, how many more jobs are there in which one of the requirements is that you demonstrate proficiency with a firearm as well as being constantly schooled and drilled in chemical and biological warfare drills?

    When I got out of the service, I worked as a stockroom guy at Sears and Roebuck while attending college. I can tell you, firsthand, it was a lot safer than most of the things we did in the military.

    I don't find that Chris Hayes is "courageous" for saying crap like what he said. He said it from a bunker of safety called the First Amendment in which millions of men and women volunteered, signed up and risked all to safeguard. What the hell is brave about coattailing on that? He faced zero risk other than our scorn, which he already had.

    If he--or you--truly want to demonstrate bravery in making such questions public, take them down to your local VFW or AmLeg post on Memorial Day, and ask the vets gathered around what THEY think.

    I'm sure you're thinking you'd get your block knocked off. You wouldn't. It would be explained to you why your thinking is erroneous. Maybe if you were surrounded by such proud people, you might get it. If you didn't, you'd politely be told to get the hell out of their post and escorted to the door.

    And that, sir, is the difference.
    Author of Above Reproach, the new thriller that unequivocally positions the Second Amendment and concealed carry as our nation's most effective system of homeland and personal security.

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
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  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit51 View Post
    I guess all of us have our own idea what a hero is....irregardless of what a "dictionary" says.
    I think that's it, exactly. We all have our own definition of "hero." Some of us are a little more literal and some are a little more liberal in the application.

    That doesn't make anyone right or wrong or a "pastey faced weenie" or "a piece of crap" or a "traitors" or "commie" or a "jerk-face" or any other derogatory term chosen to describe someone of differing opinion.

    There are societal heroes and personal heroes. Personal heroes often have done nothing outwardly heroic but have done something specifically noteworthy, honorable and outstanding to the individual who looks up to them. Many people think of their parents as heroes. I think that's a great thing.

    I think the knee-jerk reaction to this is a little extreme (personally) and a bit scary in that so many are being so violently reactive to one's own personal definition of what is heroic and who is a hero. He's not saying he thinks that fallen service members should not be honored or that they are not noble in their willingness to serve.

    Lots of people have died to protect his right to think freely and express his opinion and just because we may not agree doesn't mean he should be sacrificed on the wall of perceived traitors.

    Like I said, what is so wrong with honoring our fallen as Soldiers and Marines and Sailors and Airmen? What is so wrong with looking up to them with honor for being honorable Americans who chose to serve? Why do we have to raise them all to the rank of hero? What they are doing, every day IS very honorable and appreciated.

    You asked the question:
    So some people in here think that someone who is delivering supplys and ammo to troops and is either killed or mangled by a IED is NOT a hero? Someone who is trying to help innocent civilians (women and children and old) and is sniped is NOT a hero?
    Let me retort by asking you why they have to all be heroes? Why is that so important for you? For many of the other members who are involved in this thread? Why so violently against those who are very touched by their sacrifice and appreciative of their service but just not applying a specific word to them? Why is that SO offensive? It's a word. Why will another word (like honorable) not do?

    To me, being a Soldier or a Marine or and Airman or a Sailor is pretty impressive enough. They have hard (and some times amazing) jobs that require a lot of them. I am impressed by them. I respect them. I honor them. Why is that not enough? Why does that make me (or those like me) "pastey faced weenie" or "a piece of crap" or a "traitors" or "commie" or a "jerk-face"?

  11. #55
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    I am not even going to get started on this one. This weekend is a time for rememberence and I intend to keep it that way.
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    I guess he feels that just going to work and doing your job everyday doesn't make you a hero....If the worse thing that can happen is you get your Latte order screwed up,get a paper cut,or maybe get in a car wreck.
    I'd like to see his views if going to work meant donning Kevlar and Body Armor,locking and loading your M4,M240,M2,or any other crew served weapons, and knowing that as soon as you roll out of the compound you could start taking fire or hit an IED.
    I've seen way too many wounded Warriors every time I have a VA appointment to waste my time on these POS and the fact that they actually get paid 6 figures to spew the crap that they do.
    Today I honor the Vets that enlisted to protect a Nation that they truly love to be Citizens of and would put their lives on the line to protect her from all enemies.
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  13. #57
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    I am not even going to get started on this one. This weekend is a time for rememberence and I intend to keep it that way.
    You wont so I will.

    If you havent signed the dotted line, and put your ass our there to be shot off, who are you to say they are not heros. How bout the soldier that get his leg blown off serving so that you can sit behind your computer and say he is not a hero. Ill bet he would gladly give the title back, if he could be called Fred, Jim, or what ever and still have his leg. These Folks that fight our wars go into harms way on a daily basis, just to here this kind of crap. I guess some of you, really have no idea....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  14. #58
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    You wont so I will.

    If you havent signed the dotted line, and put your ass our there to be shot off, who are you to say they are not heros. How bout the soldier that get his leg blown off serving so that you can sit behind your computer and say he is not a hero. Ill bet he would gladly give the title back, if he could be called Fred, Jim, or what ever and still have his leg. These Folks that fight our wars go into harms way on a daily basis, just to here this kind of crap. I guess some of you, really have no idea....
    And some of us do and find this whole argument simply rididulous.

    Sent via Tapatalk, and still using real words.

  15. #59
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I think that's it, exactly. We all have our own definition of "hero." Some of us are a little more literal and some are a little more liberal in the application.

    That doesn't make anyone right or wrong or a "pastey faced weenie" or "a piece of crap" or a "traitors" or "commie" or a "jerk-face" or any other derogatory term chosen to describe someone of differing opinion.

    There are societal heroes and personal heroes. Personal heroes often have done nothing outwardly heroic but have done something specifically noteworthy, honorable and outstanding to the individual who looks up to them. Many people think of their parents as heroes. I think that's a great thing.

    I think the knee-jerk reaction to this is a little extreme (personally) and a bit scary in that so many are being so violently reactive to one's own personal definition of what is heroic and who is a hero. He's not saying he thinks that fallen service members should not be honored or that they are not noble in their willingness to serve.

    Lots of people have died to protect his right to think freely and express his opinion and just because we may not agree doesn't mean he should be sacrificed on the wall of perceived traitors.

    Like I said, what is so wrong with honoring our fallen as Soldiers and Marines and Sailors and Airmen? What is so wrong with looking up to them with honor for being honorable Americans who chose to serve? Why do we have to raise them all to the rank of hero? What they are doing, every day IS very honorable and appreciated.

    You asked the question:

    Let me retort by asking you why they have to all be heroes? Why is that so important for you? For many of the other members who are involved in this thread? Why so violently against those who are very touched by their sacrifice and appreciative of their service but just not applying a specific word to them? Why is that SO offensive? It's a word. Why will another word (like honorable) not do?

    To me, being a Soldier or a Marine or and Airman or a Sailor is pretty impressive enough. They have hard (and some times amazing) jobs that require a lot of them. I am impressed by them. I respect them. I honor them. Why is that not enough? Why does that make me (or those like me) "pastey faced weenie" or "a piece of crap" or a "traitors" or "commie" or a "jerk-face"?
    Do you really think those terms were meant towards YOU or anyone else on this forum??? THEY WERE NOT!!! They were meant for Chris Hayes and no one else. Your opinion is your opinion and I have no problem with that. You are taking this too personally.

    Just like the salute...you honor in your way....I will in mine. I took offense to this man, Chris Hayes not wanting to call fallen service people heroes, because he thinks it justify war. That is what he said and I think that thinking is flawed and disrespectful to the sacrifice made by so many. You want to call them honorable....fine.....I want to say they are heroic that should be fine too. But I find promoting a political agenda on the backs of our servicemen disgusting. That is what this man Chris Hayes did. IMO
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
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  16. #60
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    And some of us do and find this whole argument simply rididulous.

    Sent via Tapatalk, and still using real words.
    Ill tell my cousins hubby that next time I see him...O' wait I cant do that, he was hit with an IED. With all due respect JD I find your opinion ridiculous. IMO he is a hero. He did something most of us have never done and never will due.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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