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ND inside police station

This is a discussion on ND inside police station within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Ok hold on guys. "Sweeping it under the rug"? C'mon now. Let's not confuse "sweeping under the rug" with "not news worthy". For everyone who ...

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  1. #16
    Senior Member Array kb2wji's Avatar
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    Ok hold on guys. "Sweeping it under the rug"? C'mon now. Let's not confuse "sweeping under the rug" with "not news worthy".

    For everyone who thinks civilians should play by the same rules as the LEO's....they do. Do you know how many ND calls my team answered last year? A bunch. Know how many civilians were prosecuted for blasting a hole in the couch? None. No arrest, no misdemeanor citation. Not so much as a city code violation for discharging a firearm inside city limits. Zilch. Oh yea, and we werent trying to cover anything up. An accident is an accident. At least thats how it works in my neck of the woods, and all the LEO's I know seem to be on the same page.

    The stories are actually pretty goofy. Last one I was sent to was a guy who put a .22 through his TV. He was watching some sort of action movie, and had his .22 pistol aimed at the tv. "Aiming at the bad guys". Bang! Uh oh...need a new TV. He got a tongue lashing for being stupid, and a very stern warning, but prosecution just didnt seem to be necessary.

    I digress....
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  2. #17
    Member Array l1a1's Avatar
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    I had opportunity to use a very limited access controlled Police shooting range a while back and I was astounded by the number of bullet holes in the overhead roof structure and other areas away from the firing line. I was amazed that this wasn't damage due to vandalism but to negligent discharges (according to the story). Our little public non staffed range in the boonies (read redneck central) has much less damage although the vast majority of the damage is obviously intentional.
    It's kind of like how some people have a sudden and insatiable desire to talk about vampires after the Twilight series became popular, except zombies are much less gay and more likely to exist one day

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    hello officer, no one likes a snitch. no one got hurt move on.
    The public operation of the public's business is worth knowing. IMO, the only relevant aspect is whether safety, procedural, training steps are in place and were followed. If not, certainly such steps need to be taken (ie, if someone unfamiliar with the weapon was handling it). It's likely not a fire-his-butt type situation (or, shouldn't be if not for the knee-jerkers in society). But it seems to me that an environment condoning lying and/or covering up is a breach of trust far, far more threatening than a safety misstep.
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    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by l1a1 View Post
    I had opportunity to use a very limited access controlled Police shooting range a while back and I was astounded by the number of bullet holes in the overhead roof structure and other areas away from the firing line. I was amazed that this wasn't damage due to vandalism but to negligent discharges (according to the story). Our little public non staffed range in the boonies (read redneck central) has much less damage although the vast majority of the damage is obviously intentional.
    Probably from guests and VIPs who were allowed onto the range.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array NH_Esau's Avatar
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    ND inside a PD w/no injuries isn't newsworthy if it's investigated and appropriate documentation/discipline/decertification/remedial training is done.

    Investigate it to make sure it's not a trend with the officer or department, or a problem with procedures or even the firearm.

    Then take action... it's an internal matter - document it so that if the guy does it again in the future, it's an official trend. No paper, it didnt' happen. Discipline because that's how you hold people accountable - could be a dressing down, could be a bad report, unpaid leave, even firing - depends on the situation and history. Decertification - he didn't meet the standards of his certification - until remedial training is accomplished and he demonstrates skill and proficiency. Nobody outside the PD and chain-of-command needs to know about it. The whole PD should know about it, though, because at a minimum the ND-er ought to be briefing his peers on the incident and lessons learned.

    Now, if it gets ignored and/or that same PD has a history of citing civilians for similar no-injury NDs, it becomes newsworthy.
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  6. #21
    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
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    kb2wji, in my neck of the woods a ND in your home will lead to confiscation of all your guns/ammo/license (required to possess) and likely criminal charges as well. That's just the way we do it up here in Commiechusetts!

    Meanwhile, as I was typing my report at the end of my shift, an officer comes in and places his holstered, loaded personal firearm down on the same table the typewriter was on, pointed at my chest! A week later I'm in the same locker room and there is now a bullet hole in the concrete block behind that chair I was sitting in! [This was late 1970s-early 1980s.]

    Very strong rumor from a number of officers has it that after a drug raid (no idea the year except it was before 1979), back at the station a Sgt (who later retired as chief) picked up the Thompson SMG off the table and let off a burst in the station, almost killing one of the other officers! None of this stuff was publicized.

    During a qualification shoot, my dipshit Captain unholstered his gun and starts showing it to another officer as our instructors are downrange changing/scoring targets. Again nobody said boo.

    So, yes when police do it it usually is a non-news story. If a civilian does it (I can only speak to my little corner of the world), they are deemed "unsuitable" (allowed by our laws) and lose their license and guns as a minimum and frequently are charged with a crime as well.
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  7. #22
    Senior Member Array kb2wji's Avatar
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    Lens, thats a whole lot of ND's in one career! I probably would have worn a flak jacket and kevlar helmet around that place! I agree that if someone has a history of stupid or reckless behavior, something needs to be done. Surely things are handled differently in different areas also. It's the same reason we have people here telling their stories of having helicopters called when they have run-ins with LEO's. As NH_Esau stated, if its properly investigated / documented / handled, it's usually not the end of the world. I dont agree that someone should be deemed unsuitable for a ND in their home. It's reckless, stupid and dangerous, but in my eyes, its still a mistake. Thats how I treat most of those situations.

    On the other hand, if some knucklehead is one of the "usuals", its a different story. If the guy that has the ND is the same guy that i've dealt with in the past (jumping off his roof with an umbrella for a parachute, writing his name in lighter fluid on the driveway to set on fire etc...) then we're gonna have a different conversation. THAT guy just doesnt need a gun.

    And as usual, now I go a little off topic with a story...my favorite ND to date...more like an AYFKMD (are you friggin kidding me discharge)

    20 year old knucklehead calls 911 saying he was shot in a drive by. He's in a pretty rough area, and drive by's are fairly common. He has a nice .38 hole in his thigh, and all his gang banger buddies are standing over him, jealous of the new street cred. "Victim" tells me he was just walking down the road when a "dark car, I think, but didnt really see it" drove by and shot at him. Long story short, I talk to mama. Mama is pretty obviously trying to cover something up. She finally gives me the "come hither" motion, and walks me into her living room. She points to her computer and says "go click it". I find a video on the screen. Knucklehead and his buddies are all dancing around rapping. They are apparently making a rap video to post online. Most are holding either guns, money ($5's on the outside to impress the ladies) or beer. Well, gun goes off as Knucklehead tries to make a gang sign while holding it. Puts a nice street cred sized hole in his leg.

    Sorry for the long winded story...its one of my favorites. So I guess what i'm saying is that not all ND's are created equal. An honest to goodness ND is usually forgiveable after a stern tongue lashing. Knucklehead ND's arent.
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  8. #23
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NH_Esau View Post
    ND inside a PD w/no injuries isn't newsworthy if it's investigated and appropriate documentation/discipline/decertification/remedial training is done.

    Investigate it to make sure it's not a trend with the officer or department, or a problem with procedures or even the firearm.
    And that's about as simple as it is. Easily handled, if handled responsibly.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  9. #24
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    SO,everytime Joe Shmoe has a ND-AD you want to be informed? As long as it does'nt involve me or my loved ones I don't care!Or maybe I just don't care about everybody else's business.
    Quote Originally Posted by Burns View Post
    I prefer to stay informed of what goes on in my city/state/country. If you wish to not hear about situations where peoples lives are put in danger, don't read the news. Simple.

  10. #25
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    The public operation of the public's business is worth knowing. IMO, the only relevant aspect is whether safety, procedural, training steps are in place and were followed. If not, certainly such steps need to be taken (ie, if someone unfamiliar with the weapon was handling it). It's likely not a fire-his-butt type situation (or, shouldn't be if not for the knee-jerkers in society). But it seems to me that an environment condoning lying and/or covering up is a breach of trust far, far more threatening than a safety misstep.
    I don't remember any one lying about it, covering it up maybe. Sure I would do the same thing because of the reaction of the public. hech look at how people on here react when they are not even remotely close to the place. What you will get is every cop hater making comments like "my baby could have got hurt if I had one". Show me one place of business that runs out and tells the press something every time something happens.
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  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array Burns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockrocker View Post
    As long as it does'nt involve me or my loved ones I don't care!
    Really?...
    Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable- JFK

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Years ago we had an officer relieved the dispatcher for supper break,LEO was bored and drew his S&W 686 he said he was aiming at the bullet resistant window that seperates the dispatcher from walk in lobby thinking I wonder how bullet resistant it is,he had a brain fart and pulled the trigger,the window stopped the Winchester 147grn Silver tip and it ricocheted around,they never found the spent round and assumed it was lodged somewhere inside the communications console.He got wrote up and they replaced the spider webbed glass
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  13. #28
    Senior Member Array kb2wji's Avatar
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    ^ Ahhh the difference between a ND (negligent discharge), and the AYFKMD (are you friggin kidding me discharge) I agree that the two should be treated quite differently, even though the outcome is similar.

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    SO,everytime Joe Shmoe has a ND-AD you want to be informed?
    No. But a public institution or agency that fails in its duty to address issues, particularly ones as important as safety handling of dangerous devices, is going down a dangerous road. The insider apparently thought as much, hence the disclosure.

    I don't remember any one lying about it, covering it up maybe. Sure I would do the same thing because of the reaction of the public. hech look at how people on here react when they are not even remotely close to the place.
    According to the article, the insider's point was that the "incident was not addressed." Public discourse about the handling of the public's business is part of being a public agency or institution. Legitimate heat should ensue, if an agency or institution fails in its duty to evaluate, correct situations, particularly ones in which there's reasonable risk to people.

    As with any public discourse, commentary will include items from "haters" as well as those claiming transparency occurs via "snitches." All kinds come out, with public discourse.

    Show me one place of business that runs out and tells the press something every time something happens.
    It's a simple question of transparency, and of avoiding situations of hiding, covering up, lying, failure to address issues and the like. The insider claimed exactly this, that the issue wasn't addressed. IMO, a public agency isn't a "place of business" comparable to Bob's Watch Repair.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  15. #30
    Member Array l1a1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    Probably from guests and VIPs who were allowed onto the range.
    I hope that is the case but it sure looks like someone just offloaded a whole lot of rounds into the structures. I'm not trying at all to impune the folks with the Police Department. They have a very difficult job and most are consumate professionals. I just hope it was a lone idiot or two that kind of screwed things up there and not a pattern.
    It's kind of like how some people have a sudden and insatiable desire to talk about vampires after the Twilight series became popular, except zombies are much less gay and more likely to exist one day

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