For those that blame businesses for hiring illegal workers....

This is a discussion on For those that blame businesses for hiring illegal workers.... within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Hopyard Again, the law specifies what employers are permitted to request; indeed what they must request. Once they take it upon themselves ...

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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Again, the law specifies what employers are permitted to request; indeed what they must request.
    Once they take it upon themselves to go beyond that, they are not only taking the law into their own hands,
    but they are opening themselves up to the precise charge which has been leveled against them.

    Now I gave the example from DPS to illustrate a very important point. Many here think this papers please
    stuff is great and essential even to the security of our country. What you don't realize is the price you will pay
    when low level clerks, employment office personnel, and other paper pushers are enabled to simply add to what is
    allowed, or to willy nilly reject what is given to them. This is the path to a totalitarian society in which
    people become non-persons. And I selected the example I gave precisely because if you think it can't happen to you
    and yours, I'm sure those folks never thought it would happen to them.

    Be careful what you wish for because you might get it. That's how I see all of these paper please laws.
    They aren't good.

    Just imagine if that lady couldn't get her DL because she couldn't produce the 56 y.o. marriage license which was not
    a lawful request anyhow. The arbitrary action of a low level clerk then would deprive her of the ability to travel, to
    get on a plane, to drive a car, possibly to bank. This is too much power to give to a clerk.

    Back on the employment scene, its basically the same error. A low level clerk, or an owner being less than wise,
    took the law into his own hands and the result was perhaps the alleged discrimination. We won't know till the litigation is over. Don't cheer the wrong doing if it happened.
    WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? This isn't the Federal Government or local government demanding papers in the street. This was a business POSSIBLY doing their due diligence in order to not hire illegal workers. This papers please argument is a red herring. You're the same guy who constantly reminds us that the Government is restricted by the Constitution, not us. This article is about a private company and people who want a job. Let's not try to work in some evil Government conspiracy.

    We are governed by laws and this article doesn't give enough information to decide what, if any, laws were broken. It amazes me that in one thread you view the evidence reported that a BG was caught in the act of molesting a girl as skeptical at best.

    Yet in this thread there is no evidence reported, just an allegation by the Government and you run off at the mouth (keyboard) like it's a smoking gun. You can't have it both ways and I'm calling you on it.

    To get my gas turned on I had to provide a valid DL, proof of residency (either a bill with my name and address on it or a deed/real estate contract) and give my SSN so they could run my credit. So don't give me this crap that others don't have to submit paperwork in the US. It just isn't true.

    Also to enroll my kids in school I had to provide birth certificates, SSN cards, shot records, proof of residency in the school district and a host of other things. Should I go get a lawyer?
    JoJoGunn and Rotorblade like this.
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Sarcasm--- Yes yes, bring your BC in every two years for re-authentication. Bring your DL in every 2 years
    instead of every 8 or 10 sarcasm off

    btw, the folks I talked about had passports, had DLs issued from other states.
    We MUST move back away from the hole we are digging for ourselves with this papers please stuff.
    It is a path to the destruction of our own freedom, not a path to salvation from the illegal problem.
    There's a HUGE difference between a private employer(whom you are not required to work for and for whom you work at THEIR discretion) vs your DPS example.
    BigStick likes this.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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    While I think that most laws dealing with descrimination are discriminatory in themselves by nature, they are still the law. It is possible that the company in question unintentionally broke the law when trying to vet their potential employees. There are very specific questions/documents you are allowed to ask and not allowed to ask for all people regardless of race or legal status. The fact that they were using a software complicates the issue in that they might have assumed the software fell within legal standards. We don't know at this point and need more details.

    But what we can say for sure is that with this "justice" department, you are more likely to be attacked for doing the right thing than you are to be prosecuted for intentionally breaking the law.
    atctimmy likes this.
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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? This isn't the Federal Government or local government demanding papers in the street. This was a business POSSIBLY doing their due diligence in order to not hire illegal workers. This papers please argument is a red herring. You're the same guy who constantly reminds us that the Government is restricted by the Constitution, not us. This article is about a private company and people who want a job. Let's not try to work in some evil Government conspiracy.

    We are governed by laws and this article doesn't give enough information to decide what, if any, laws were broken. It amazes me that in one thread you view the evidence reported that a BG was caught in the act of molesting a girl as skeptical at best.

    Yet in this thread there is no evidence reported, just an allegation by the Government and you run off at the mouth (keyboard) like it's a smoking gun. You can't have it both ways and I'm calling you on it.

    To get my gas turned on I had to provide a valid DL, proof of residency (either a bill with my name and address on it or a deed/real estate contract) and give my SSN so they could run my credit. So don't give me this crap that others don't have to submit paperwork in the US. It just isn't true.

    Also to enroll my kids in school I had to provide birth certificates, SSN cards, shot records, proof of residency in the school district and a host of other things. Should I go get a lawyer?
    What am I talking about you ask:

    If you go here http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/i-9.pdf and actually look at the box on the very top of the
    I-9 Form, it clearly warns employers that, " Employers CANNOT specify which documents they will accept from
    an employee."


    That about should settle the argument that it is a private employer and they can do as they wish. That isn't what
    the law is.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    my dad owns a construction buisness in harlingen and I know they told him if he hires illegal workers (S. Texas mind you) that he would have his cars/bikes and house taken from him and have to pay a fine and jail time.
    When life gives you lemons, Open a lemonaid buisness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spade115 View Post
    my dad owns a construction buisness in harlingen and I know they told him if he hires illegal workers (S. Texas mind you) that he would have his cars/bikes and house taken from him and have to pay a fine and jail time.
    Well, no one should have threatened him, but of course if he knowingly hires illegals he is breaking the law.

    All he needs to do is have the employee fill out the form I-9 and make a copy of the documents
    specified on the I-9. File them. That puts him in compliance with the law even if it later turns out that
    the documents were fake. What he must not do is ask for documents other than the ones
    the I-9 allows; and that is stated right at the top of the form.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    What am I talking about you ask:

    If you go here http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/i-9.pdf and actually look at the box on the very top of the
    I-9 Form, it clearly warns employers that, " Employers CANNOT specify which documents they will accept from
    an employee."


    That about should settle the argument that it is a private employer and they can do as they wish. That isn't what
    the law is.
    Again, my question to you is what documents were requested? The article doesn't say. Yet you are against them. The article in the other thread DID state that both the dad and the local leo statements matched. They said the man was caught in the act but you didn't believe that article.

    How is it that you aren't singing the same tune here? Why aren't we waiting for more facts?

    hypocrisy [ hi pkrəssee ] 1.feigned high principles: the false claim to or pretense of having admirable principles, beliefs, or feelings
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Again, my question to you is what documents were requested? The article doesn't say. Yet you are against them. The article in the other thread DID state that both the dad and the local leo statements matched. They said the man was caught in the act but you didn't believe that article.

    How is it that you aren't singing the same tune here? Why aren't we waiting for more facts?

    hypocrisy [ hi pkrəssee ] 1.feigned high principles: the false claim to or pretense of having admirable principles, beliefs, or feelings
    Hang on, because you are really mixing apples and oranges, and you are misstating what I
    had to say on the other matter.

    I'm a skeptic, not a hypocrite. If what you are saying is how come I am not doubting the charge
    against this employer, show me where I said I believed it. What I have been trying to explain
    is that there are laws on what an employer may do (as evidenced by what I showed in post 19. I have no
    opinion on whether the employer did what he is accused of; I do have an opinion that if he did anything
    beyond what the I-9 requires and permits, and if that action kept qualified lawful residents from working, he is
    guilty of discrimination. There are ifs in there. It is you are are assuming the employer was righteous and
    honestly attempting to weed out unlawful workers; which he may have been, but he'd still be wrong if he went
    about it in an impermissible manner. That is the allegation against him by Uncle.

    Same with the other case. There were ifs. If things happened a certain way then murder was done.
    If they happened as claimed, the killing was justified. Clearly when the entire story came out it was justified.

    I think you mistake skepticism and questioning, looking at more than one side of a story,
    for assertion and conviction or belief.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Senior Member Array CIBMike's Avatar
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    What is wrong with a private buisness going the extra mile to avoid doing something illegal?The people that are trying to sue them are probably the same people in the government that are currently more worried about the civil rights of illegals than the civil rights of U.S. citizens.
    The easy way is always mined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CIBMike View Post
    What is wrong with a private buisness going the extra mile to avoid doing something illegal?The people that are trying to sue them are probably the same people in the government that are currently more worried about the civil rights of illegals than the civil rights of U.S. citizens.
    I think the answer to that is beyond our pay grade. Congress wrote the law in a particular manner
    to achieve whatever purpose they had in mind, in this case to prevent unlawful discrimination.

    The employer may have been making a good faith effort which was nonetheless unlawful,
    or he may have been deliberately discriminating unlawfully. Or the allegations against him may be
    bogus. That determination isn't in our hands.
    A charge was laid against him. Now it is up to the legal system to sort it out.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  12. #26
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    I'm a skeptic, not a hypocrite.
    OK. Fair enough. Sometimes though, in my opinion, your skepticism does not seem to be evenly yoked. Thank you for acknowledging my point. I may not have articulated it well but at least we finally got to it.

    Please carry on.
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Just imagine if that lady couldn't get her DL because she couldn't produce the 56 y.o. marriage license which was not a lawful request anyhow. The arbitrary action of a low level clerk then would deprive her of the ability to travel, to
    get on a plane, to drive a car, possibly to bank. This is too much power to give to a clerk.
    This is exactly what happened to my wife when we moved to Florida. She has had DLs in NC, KY, and VA but could not get one in Florida until she could obtain a copy of our 19 year old marriage license from Gatlinburg TN. I also had to obtain a certified original of my birth certificate from NC (fortunately my Dad lives 5 minutes from the courthouse there and was an approved requester due to family relation). He got it and overnighted it to me. Not nearly as simple a task to obtain the marriage license for her. Since my name didn't change, I didn't need it. I also had to provide a copy of the executed sale contract on my house to prove residency. I didn't have any bills yet since you only have 10 days by law to get your DL after you move to FL. I also was required to undergo multiple criminal and federal background checks and be fingerprinted before I could start work. And those were STATE mandated, not employer. And I'm just a financial executive...not like I'm running a nuclear plant or something.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array CIBMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I think the answer to that is beyond our pay grade. Congress wrote the law in a particular manner
    to achieve whatever purpose they had in mind, in this case to prevent unlawful discrimination.

    The employer may have been making a good faith effort which was nonetheless unlawful,
    or he may have been deliberately discriminating unlawfully. Or the allegations against him may be
    bogus. That determination isn't in our hands.
    A charge was laid against him. Now it is up to the legal system to sort it out.
    The ultimate answer is not above my pay grade......the federal government needs to stop being an enabler where illegal immigration is concerned.
    The easy way is always mined.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    This is exactly what happened to my wife when we moved to Florida. She has had DLs in NC, KY, and VA but could not get one in Florida until she could obtain a copy of our 19 year old marriage license from Gatlinburg TN. I also had to obtain a certified original of my birth certificate from NC (fortunately my Dad lives 5 minutes from the courthouse there and was an approved requester due to family relation). He got it and overnighted it to me. Not nearly as simple a task to obtain the marriage license for her. Since my name didn't change, I didn't need it. I also had to provide a copy of the executed sale contract on my house to prove residency. I didn't have any bills yet since you only have 10 days by law to get your DL after you move to FL. I also was required to undergo multiple criminal and federal background checks and be fingerprinted before I could start work. And those were STATE mandated, not employer. And I'm just a financial executive...not like I'm running a nuclear plant or something.
    Well just imagine what a horrid situation you would have been in if she couldn't get that DL. Then what?

    Folks, be careful about your zeal for a paper please society. It will bite good people in the butt and be used
    as a tool against freedom by the criminal in the political world. This trend in our society is not toward freedom or toward
    protecting us from "others." It is more nefarious, and we better start speaking up against it while we can.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by CIBMike View Post
    The ultimate answer is not above my pay grade......the federal government needs to stop being an enabler where illegal immigration is concerned.
    See Bug Dude's post--- because the solutions being offered stink.
    CIBMike likes this.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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