For those that blame businesses for hiring illegal workers....

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Thread: For those that blame businesses for hiring illegal workers....

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    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    For those that blame businesses for hiring illegal workers....

    This company purchased software to help screen out illegal applicants and now they are being sued by the Government for discrimination!

    Department of Justice
    Office of Public Affairs
    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    Tuesday, June 19, 2012
    Justice Department Files Lawsuit Against Rose Acre Farms in Indiana Alleging Discrimination Against Work-Authorized Non-Citizens

    WASHINGTON – The Justice Department announced today the filing of a lawsuit against Rose Acre Farms Inc., a major U.S. egg producer based in Seymour, Ind., alleging that Rose Acre engaged in a pattern or practice of discrimination against work-authorized non-citizens in the employment eligibility verification process. Rose Acre operates in more than 40 locations in six states.

    The complaint alleges that Rose Acre had a standard practice of subjecting newly hired non-U.S. citizens to unauthorized demands for more, different or specific documents issued by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security in order to verify their employment eligibility, while U.S. citizens were permitted to present their choice of documentation. The Immigration and Nationality Act’s (INA) anti-discrimination provision prohibits employers from placing additional documentary burdens on work-authorized employees during the hiring and employment eligibility verification process based on their citizenship status or national origin. According to the complaint, Rose Acre purchased an electronic employment eligibility verification software system in June 2009 that may have prompted human resource officials to demand certain documents from non-U.S. citizens. The complaint seeks a court order prohibiting future discrimination by Rose Acre, changes in Rose Acre's policies and procedures for verifying employment eligibility, monetary damages for those harmed by the Rose Acre’s actions, and civil penalties.

    “The INA’s anti-discrimination provision requires employers to treat employees equally in the employment eligibility verification process, regardless of citizenship status or national origin,” said Thomas E. Perez, Assistant Attorney General for the Civil Rights Division. “The department is committed to removing discriminatory hurdles to employment through the enforcement of the anti-discrimination provision.”

    The Office of Special Counsel for Immigration-Related Unfair Employment Practices (OSC) is responsible for enforcing the anti-discrimination provision of the INA, which protects work authorized individuals against discrimination in hiring, firing and recruitment or referral for a fee on the basis of citizenship status and national origin. The INA also protects all work-authorized individuals from discrimination in the employment eligibility verification process and from retaliation. The U.S. is represented in this matter by Luz V. Lopez-Ortiz and Linda White Andrews, OSC Trial Attorneys.

    For more information about protections against employment discrimination under federal immigration law, call OSC’s worker hotline at 1-800-255-7688 (TDD 1-800-237-2515), OSC’s employer hotline at 1-800-255-8155 (TDD 1-800-237-2515), sign up for a no-cost webinar at
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  3. #2
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    Sued if you do...sued if you don't. They'll just have to outsource our chickens 'till they come home to roost.
    atctimmy likes this.
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    Member Array niks's Avatar
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    It is incredible that a company that is trying to do the right thing and operate by the law of the land,now being persecuted by the DOJ for doing so. Maybe, they're just trying to create a job fair for the newly un-illegal immigrants.

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    Ex Member Array oldrwizr's Avatar
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    At issue here is the term "work authorized". If they're "carded" to work here, then no, companies shouldn't use software to ferret them out. That in itself would be illegal. If their use of the software was used exclusively to screen for un-authorized workers then the law should leave them alone. JMO.
    Hopyard, msgt/ret, RTTR84 and 2 others like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunthorp View Post
    Sued if you do...sued if you don't. They'll just have to outsource our chickens 'till they come home to roost.
    No, its not sued if you don't. It is sued if you don't follow of the law; and they are accused of not following the
    law by demanding papers from legal residents which were different from what the law allowed them to request.
    That amounts to unlawful discrimination if it was done.

    Had the company stuck to obtaining the documents the law requires them to obtain, and not added, they would be
    OK.

    Legal non-citizen residents are entitled to the same work opportunities as everyone else except that they
    are generally prohibited from working for the Federal Government and in positions where national security
    is involved; e.g., an engineer at a high tech R&D defense company.

    The other day there was a letter to the editor of our local newspaper. The story is related to this business
    of asking for papers which are not lawfully required, though it was outside of employment.

    Our state recently enacted a law requiring people to furnish proof of their residence in the form of a lease,
    a tax bill or or deed or similar if own you home.

    A woman--- not a member of any minority group--- whose son is well known in our community, moved here
    with her husband because they are now too old to live alone. For various reasons the clerks at DPS kept
    asking for papers that are not strictly required, and also for ones they could not produce: e.g., how do you show
    a tax bill, utility bill, or rental lease, when you are living with your children. But the real outrage was they
    would not issue the DL because the car was in the husband's name and they demanded a marriage license--
    since when is a marriage part of info needed to get a DL. After 4 trips and much arguing DPS relented.

    The point, if the law specifies that you ask for paper X, you can not take it upon yourself to decide you want
    paper Y, if asking for paper Y will lead to discrimination in your hiring.

    In the DL example, yes the law asked for proof of residence in forms they were unable to provide for good reason,
    but the office went too far in its request for showing the marriage license.

    Now, imagine, if they do this to native born people of obvious Caucasian descent, what do you think they are
    quietly doing to others; and don't think you or yours will be safe.

    I say, let that company be sued.
    DaveH likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by niks View Post
    It is incredible that a company that is trying to do the right thing and operate by the law of the land,now being persecuted by the DOJ for doing so. Maybe, they're just trying to create a job fair for the newly un-illegal immigrants.
    They are not trying to do the right thing when they go beyond what they are permitted to do.
    oldrwizr likes this.
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    Distinguished Member Array DontTreadOnI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    They are not trying to do the right thing when they go beyond what they are permitted to do.
    I'd say both of those are very relative statements.
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    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    They are not trying to do the right thing when they go beyond what they are permitted to do.
    I don't know if that's necessarily true. It might be in this case, but sometime people will try to push against bureaucracy in order to get a good effect
    Our current plan for Universal Iron Lung coverage, just sayin'.
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    Ex Member Array oldrwizr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckQue View Post
    I don't know if that's necessarily true. It might be in this case, but sometime people will try to push against bureaucracy in order to get a good effect
    Good point. And Club Fed's full of those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    No, its not sued if you don't. It is sued if you don't follow of the law; and they are accused of not following the
    law by demanding papers from legal residents which were different from what the law allowed them to request.
    That amounts to unlawful discrimination if it was done.

    Had the company stuck to obtaining the documents the law requires them to obtain, and not added, they would be
    OK.

    Legal non-citizen residents are entitled to the same work opportunities as everyone else except that they
    are generally prohibited from working for the Federal Government and in positions where national security
    is involved; e.g., an engineer at a high tech R&D defense company.

    The other day there was a letter to the editor of our local newspaper. The story is related to this business
    of asking for papers which are not lawfully required, though it was outside of employment.

    Our state recently enacted a law requiring people to furnish proof of their residence in the form of a lease,
    a tax bill or or deed or similar if own you home.

    A woman--- not a member of any minority group--- whose son is well known in our community, moved here
    with her husband because they are now too old to live alone. For various reasons the clerks at DPS kept
    asking for papers that are not strictly required, and also for ones they could not produce: e.g., how do you show
    a tax bill, utility bill, or rental lease, when you are living with your children. But the real outrage was they
    would not issue the DL because the car was in the husband's name and they demanded a marriage license--
    since when is a marriage part of info needed to get a DL. After 4 trips and much arguing DPS relented.

    The point, if the law specifies that you ask for paper X, you can not take it upon yourself to decide you want
    paper Y, if asking for paper Y will lead to discrimination in your hiring.

    In the DL example, yes the law asked for proof of residence in forms they were unable to provide for good reason,
    but the office went too far in its request for showing the marriage license.

    Now, imagine, if they do this to native born people of obvious Caucasian descent, what do you think they are
    quietly doing to others; and don't think you or yours will be safe.

    I say, let that company be sued.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    They are not trying to do the right thing when they go beyond what they are permitted to do.
    Pardon me Hopy, but are you privy to more details than what was posted in the article? No? Then you have no idea what this company was doing and if it was right or wrong. Once again you're making outrageous claims that you can't back up.

    To make my point clear: If the company asked for a green card plus proof of residency (like a phone bill or a DL) in order to ferret out the use of FAKE or STOLEN green cards then they should be applauded not persecuted. Do I know that's what happened from what's in the article? Nope I don't. Neither do you.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Pardon me Hopy, but are you privy to more details than what was posted in the article? No? Then you have no idea what this company was doing and if it was right or wrong. Once again you're making outrageous claims that you can't back up.

    To make my point clear: If the company asked for a green card plus proof of residency (like a phone bill or a DL) in order to ferret out the use of FAKE or STOLEN green cards then they should be applauded not persecuted. Do I know that's what happened from what's in the article? Nope I don't. Neither do you.
    Again, the law specifies what employers are permitted to request; indeed what they must request.
    Once they take it upon themselves to go beyond that, they are not only taking the law into their own hands,
    but they are opening themselves up to the precise charge which has been leveled against them.

    Now I gave the example from DPS to illustrate a very important point. Many here think this papers please
    stuff is great and essential even to the security of our country. What you don't realize is the price you will pay
    when low level clerks, employment office personnel, and other paper pushers are enabled to simply add to what is
    allowed, or to willy nilly reject what is given to them. This is the path to a totalitarian society in which
    people become non-persons. And I selected the example I gave precisely because if you think it can't happen to you
    and yours, I'm sure those folks never thought it would happen to them.

    Be careful what you wish for because you might get it. That's how I see all of these paper please laws.
    They aren't good.

    Just imagine if that lady couldn't get her DL because she couldn't produce the 56 y.o. marriage license which was not
    a lawful request anyhow. The arbitrary action of a low level clerk then would deprive her of the ability to travel, to
    get on a plane, to drive a car, possibly to bank. This is too much power to give to a clerk.

    Back on the employment scene, its basically the same error. A low level clerk, or an owner being less than wise,
    took the law into his own hands and the result was perhaps the alleged discrimination. We won't know till the litigation is over. Don't cheer the wrong doing if it happened.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldrwizr View Post
    At issue here is the term "work authorized". If they're "carded" to work here, then no, companies shouldn't use software to ferret them out. That in itself would be illegal. If their use of the software was used exclusively to screen for un-authorized workers then the law should leave them alone. JMO.
    There are many documents "Green Cards" that are forged,It sounds to me like the Company isn't taking the Green Cards at face value and the software can tell if the Green Card number is issued to the person trying to use it,pretty much the same as identity theft when somebody uses your Identity to get Credit etc, and then defaults leaving you with a bunch of debt you never authorized.
    IMHO the only way to make forging the documents and use by Illegals it to change the document every 2 years,Legal residents would get notification to go in and exchange their ID for the new one,everybody with the forged cards would have a problem when they tried to present the old ID.
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    The complaint alleges that Rose Acre had a standard practice of subjecting newly hired non-U.S. citizens to unauthorized demands for more, different or specific documents issued by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security in order to verify their employment eligibility, while U.S. citizens were permitted to present their choice of documentation.

    “The INA’s anti-discrimination provision requires employers to treat employees equally in the employment eligibility verification process ...
    Seems straightforward. So, it's not a "damned if you do/don't" type situation. It's a "damned if you do it wrong" thing. I'd think the basic process should be the same for all groups, not varied and toughened for this or that group. IMO, it's a matter of basic fairness.
    DaveH likes this.
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    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    I work in a company where it's common knowledge that some are not here legally. Every now and then my HR department gets a letter from social security or the IRS stating that an employee is using an SS number that isn't valid. The employee is then given a week or so to correct it. Often they come back to HR with a completely different number and it's works for a year or so until they have to repeat the process. Everybody knows what's going on but does nothing. I was told flat out by our HR department "We are not the INS"
    Companies like mine are stuck in the middle. Government tells us to not hire illegals but then with a wink and a nod they send a clear message to not try "too hard".


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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    There are many documents "Green Cards" that are forged,It sounds to me like the Company isn't taking the Green Cards at face value and the software can tell if the Green Card number is issued to the person trying to use it,pretty much the same as identity theft when somebody uses your Identity to get Credit etc, and then defaults leaving you with a bunch of debt you never authorized.
    IMHO the only way to make forging the documents and use by Illegals it to change the document every 2 years,Legal residents would get notification to go in and exchange their ID for the new one,everybody with the forged cards would have a problem when they tried to present the old ID.
    Sarcasm--- Yes yes, bring your BC in every two years for re-authentication. Bring your DL in every 2 years
    instead of every 8 or 10 sarcasm off

    btw, the folks I talked about had passports, had DLs issued from other states.
    We MUST move back away from the hole we are digging for ourselves with this papers please stuff.
    It is a path to the destruction of our own freedom, not a path to salvation from the illegal problem.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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