Our splendid military is all for show - Page 3

Our splendid military is all for show

This is a discussion on Our splendid military is all for show within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by tricolordad I'm not one to argue with Airborne, but I have to point out that a stable country doesn't systematically kidnap, torture ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tricolordad View Post
    I'm not one to argue with Airborne, but I have to point out that a stable country doesn't systematically kidnap, torture and murder average citizens to instill fear in the public. And it also does not gas its own citizens to put down protest of the said kidnapping, torture and murder...a stable country also has no need to invade a neighbor for its resources so it can sell the oil and use the money to acquire stolen nuclear weapons. And those who lead these "stable" countries have no need to hide in mommy's back yard.
    You can argue with me all you want LOL. Never said I am always right. But the fact is everything you said had zero to do with US security. How is murdering his citizens, gassing them, torturing them et all a danger to the US? We are not the worlds policemen. Are you trying to say it was justified to go into Iraq? If so then our government lied to you becasue those were not the stated reasons. The reasons were becasue of possible WMD's which a lot of senior folks did not care about becasue he had NO WAY to deliver them.
    Our military and the oath taken by the service members say squat about protecting folks from a dictator. Of course they get by with the part that says you will follow the orders of blah blah. Note that it does not say lawful orders either. The purpose of our military is to defend the US and our way of life. Our military has mostly not been used for that.


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    What about the losses in lives after those 6 months in Afghanistans that were lost needlessly? (BTW:that was me that mentioned it). What about the losses of lives in Iraq from DAY ONE which were lost needlessly. What about the fact that Iraq was a stable country that was no threat to the US and now it has the possibility of turning into a breeding ground for terrorsits. What about the fact we did not have to be attacked again by Al Queda...they already did the damage they intended. They have us scared of our shadows, had us ruin our economy (granted there were other factors involved), had us pass idiotic legislation like the patriot Act. I would call that a loss.

    Yes, you are missing something.
    I get what you're saying, but it doesn't really pertain to what I wrote. You're talking about national politics; I'm just saying the U.S. military doesn't really lose battles or major engagements. I agree that the military has been over used and that many aspects of Iraq and Afghanistan are questionable.

    Gas is at $3.25/gal and there were no WMD's, but I saw the video of Saddam being hanged, which to me, doesn't seem like a loss. The military did its job. When a city needed to be taken, the Marine Corps went in and did it.

    Servicemen die in combat. It happens. It's not good, but that doesn't mean we lost anything.

    If I had to guess, I would say the wars weren't the biggest factors in our economic downfall. A lot of other factors were involved.

    So you're against the wars, I get it, but your response was irrelevant to what I wrote.

  3. #33
    Member Array tricolordad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    You can argue with me all you want LOL. Never said I am always right. But the fact is everything you said had zero to do with US security. How is murdering his citizens, gassing them, torturing them et all a danger to the US? We are not the worlds policemen. Are you trying to say it was justified to go into Iraq? If so then our government lied to you becasue those were not the stated reasons. The reasons were becasue of possible WMD's which a lot of senior folks did not care about becasue he had NO WAY to deliver them.
    Our military and the oath taken by the service members say squat about protecting folks from a dictator. Of course they get by with the part that says you will follow the orders of blah blah. Note that it does not say lawful orders either. The purpose of our military is to defend the US and our way of life. Our military has mostly not been used for that.
    I'm just responding to the comment on Iraq being stable.
    The government can declare war for whatever reason they choose. They can order me to do whatever they please. They cannot tell me what to believe in. I joined for my own reasons. Don't know about the rest of you, but I wanted to go. I watched all through school how Sadaam murdered for pleasure and greed and I was praying for a reason to knock him off his throne, any reason at all. Lo and behold, G.W. gave us a reason. And hey, I think whatever dethrones a ruthless dictator and dislodges a terrorist organization is lawful enough, no matter what the action taken must be. We have the will and means, why not free those less fortunate than us? Did you sign your checks? I did...

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array peckman28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tricolordad View Post
    I'm just responding to the comment on Iraq being stable.
    The government can declare war for whatever reason they choose. They can order me to do whatever they please. They cannot tell me what to believe in. I joined for my own reasons. Don't know about the rest of you, but I wanted to go. I watched all through school how Sadaam murdered for pleasure and greed and I was praying for a reason to knock him off his throne, any reason at all. Lo and behold, G.W. gave us a reason. And hey, I think whatever dethrones a ruthless dictator and dislodges a terrorist organization is lawful enough, no matter what the action taken must be. We have the will and means, why not free those less fortunate than us? Did you sign your checks? I did...
    Force everyone in the country to pay for your vendetta against a third-world dictator who has actually done nothing directly to you? No thank you. Most of the world lives under the kinds of conditions the Iraqis lived under, certainly from a political perspective anyway. There is no way we would ever have the resources to "free the world" at the point of a gun. A significant portion of our current fiscal woes can be traced to foreign meddling, none of which is justified. If a nation directly threatens us, we should deal with them. There is no nation on this Earth that is even close to capable of posing a real military threat to the U.S., China included.

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tricolordad View Post
    I'm just responding to the comment on Iraq being stable.
    The government can declare war for whatever reason they choose. They can order me to do whatever they please. They cannot tell me what to believe in. I joined for my own reasons. Don't know about the rest of you, but I wanted to go. I watched all through school how Sadaam murdered for pleasure and greed and I was praying for a reason to knock him off his throne, any reason at all. Lo and behold, G.W. gave us a reason. And hey, I think whatever dethrones a ruthless dictator and dislodges a terrorist organization is lawful enough, no matter what the action taken must be. We have the will and means, why not free those less fortunate than us? Did you sign your checks? I did...
    Because that is not the job of the US military. Pretty clear cut. You think that all the US lives that were lost and the US servicemembers that were maimed was worth it to overthrow a dictator that was no threat to the US? I have no idea how long you have been in, what service you are in or what position you serve. But whatever it is I am glad you are not our Commander in Chief or hopefully not in a position to influence decisions on where the US should fight.

  6. #36
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    Veteran here. Seldom wore my "show quality attire".

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    Veteran here. Seldom wore my "show quality attire".
    LOL! First time my son saw me in uniform and a haircut was when he was twelve and my retirement ceremony.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array kerberos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Because that is not the job of the US military. Pretty clear cut. You think that all the US lives that were lost and the US servicemembers that were maimed was worth it to overthrow a dictator that was no threat to the US? I have no idea how long you have been in, what service you are in or what position you serve. But whatever it is I am glad you are not our Commander in Chief or hopefully not in a position to influence decisions on where the US should fight.
    Another in the "had to take my time before replying to this" for respect of the rules here...

    To the article...

    To suntzu... what about the Law of Unintended Consequences or in the case of these "wasted lives", unintended benefits.

    I speak more to the intimidation that has kept other countries who do have delivery systems from using them; knowing that the U.S. over-involves itself militarily (one point of yours that I agree with to a degree) with much less prevocation than an ICBM.

    I'm not asking you to change your point of view completely because I agree with about half of it...

    Maybe it's just my way of making sense of the sacrifice that so many have made before us and continue to do so today...

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  9. #39
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Intelligent and informed debate.? Try that with someone with a coexist bumped sticker, try it with someone in the Education system. Waste of time.
    Simple fact no madder if you think we should be their or not. If we don't keep them busy in their yard they will be in ours.
    The middle east is not our friend, they are not a bunch of tolerant peace loving people that want to coexist with us.
    Anyone that teachers that is wrong.
    You needed security and bouncers all most every where now days ,well the US military is our security and bouncers.
    Good luck without them.

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerberos View Post
    Another in the "had to take my time before replying to this" for respect of the rules here...

    To the article...

    To suntzu... what about the Law of Unintended Consequences or in the case of these "wasted lives", unintended benefits.

    I speak more to the intimidation that has kept other countries who do have delivery systems from using them; knowing that the U.S. over-involves itself militarily (one point of yours that I agree with to a degree) with much less prevocation than an ICBM.

    I'm not asking you to change your point of view completely because I agree with about half of it...

    Maybe it's just my way of making sense of the sacrifice that so many have made before us and continue to do so today...

    That was a very respectful way of replying to my post without saying you think I am full of doo doo And no, I will not change my stance.

  11. #41
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    Ummm, the Marine Corps is 0-4? What?

    Iraq- Saddam swung from a rope, a democracy is in place. WIN
    Afghanistan- The Taliban are no longer in power, bin Laden ate a bullet. Democracy is in place. WIN
    Somolia- This was a US Army deal. The Marine Corps showed up after the events of Blackhawk Down and then left shortly after.
    Lebanon- Here's one where you have an argument. The terrorists blew up a barracks and we left.

    And the ignorant fool thinks that in a "fair fight" (war isn't supposed to be fair, it is brutal) Hezbollah could beat the Marine Corps? Really? He cannot be serious. If you send the Marine Corps after the thugs in that street gang (and that's all they are) and remove idiotic rules of engagement and let the Marines kill them where they live and hide Hezbollah would cease to exist within weeks and their masters in Iran would be wetting the bed thinking they were next.

    Somebody really should take this douche's keyboard away from him before he writes anything else. Nobody should ever be as embarrassed as he should be feeling now.
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  12. #42
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty901 View Post
    Intelligent and informed debate.? Try that with someone with a coexist bumped sticker, try it with someone in the Education system. Waste of time.
    Simple fact no madder if you think we should be their or not. If we don't keep them busy in their yard they will be in ours.
    The middle east is not our friend, they are not a bunch of tolerant peace loving people that want to coexist with us.
    Anyone that teachers that is wrong.
    You needed security and bouncers all most every where now days ,well the US military is our security and bouncers.
    Good luck without them.
    Bouncers kick people out of their own establishments. Thugs and bullies go to other places and beat up on the weak to project their strength. JMO

  13. #43
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    Ummm, the Marine Corps is 0-4? What?

    Iraq- Saddam swung from a rope, a democracy is in place. WIN
    Afghanistan- The Taliban are no longer in power, bin Laden ate a bullet. Democracy is in place. WIN
    Somolia- This was a US Army deal. The Marine Corps showed up after the events of Blackhawk Down and then left shortly after.
    Lebanon- Here's one where you have an argument. The terrorists blew up a barracks and we left.

    And the ignorant fool thinks that in a "fair fight" (war isn't supposed to be fair, it is brutal) Hezbollah could beat the Marine Corps? Really? He cannot be serious. If you send the Marine Corps after the thugs in that street gang (and that's all they are) and remove idiotic rules of engagement and let the Marines kill them where they live and hide Hezbollah would cease to exist within weeks and their masters in Iran would be wetting the bed thinking they were next.

    Somebody really should take this douche's keyboard away from him before he writes anything else. Nobody should ever be as embarrassed as he should be feeling now.

    Correction, we left before Blackhawk down, and then came back in limited capacity afterward.
    Last edited by JD; August 2nd, 2012 at 10:38 PM.

  14. #44
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    I might be miss quoting here, but I think think the sentiment holds. I think General Schwartzkoph scoffed at the notion of a fair fight. In fact, stress the idea is of a very 'unfair fight', totally overwhelm the enemy, fake left, powerhouse right to the jaw, knock them silly, stomp them to pulp, ask 'who else wants some of this'? And have the tank busting Cobra's and A-10's circling below the horizon. Navy F-18 Super Hornets flying high cover... and a few good Marines to take care of the stragglers.

  15. #45
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    Besides thinking that the author is an idiot, I only have a few points to make.

    Our military has protected us along with most all of Europe and the middle east for the last nearly 100 years.

    These "wars" that the author refers to were not wars. They were political nonsense decided by politicians. Vietnam could have been settled shortly after WWII when Ho Chi Min asked for US help in gaining their independence from France. Had we simply said to France get out, they would have had no choice but to leave, as after WWII France wasn't in a possition to do anything except be rebuilt. We paid dearly in lives and money for that bad decision and the decisions in the later decades.

    Lebanon, Somalia, really wars?

    Iraq, Afghanistan, we had no business over there. Iraq was effectively taken care of in the early 90's when we destroyed 90% of their military capabilities.

    It is time we stop being the worlds police force. We spend more than the top 14 countries in the world combined on military, mostly to ensure the protection of the rest of the world. If there is ever a true war that we have to be engaged in, I am certain that the US military is up to the task.

    The question is however, is the rest of the country prepared to make the sacrifices that the members of the military have and are making. That is where I question our readiness.
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