Todays Military...do you want this for your kid? - Page 2

Todays Military...do you want this for your kid?

This is a discussion on Todays Military...do you want this for your kid? within the Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by troutkiller That's been going on since Bush got us into Iraq in '03 (at least). Back then, US troops were not provided ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array sparkykb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutkiller View Post
    That's been going on since Bush got us into Iraq in '03 (at least). Back then, US troops were not provided body armor for over a year and were buying their own. DoD knew they had problems with unarmored Humvees but they kept pushing our guys into the field to get maimed and killed. In response to a question about Humvees is when Rumsfeld made his famous you-go-to-war-with-what-you-got statement.

    It's nothing new.
    No, it isn't anything new. Guys stormed the beaches of Normandy with only a Steel pot for protection. Did Bush make them do that too?

    People had body armor in the beginning, some people just had older PASGT armor that only provided frag protection instead of the newer stuff that had rifle plates. That PASGT frag armor is the EXACT same stuff worn during Desert Storm. It takes quite awhile to get new stuff fielded. As with all things, units that need the new stuff the most get it the quickest. An Infantryman is usually going to get new armor over a cook because of job requirements. Eventually that cook is going to get the new stuff, but only after people who need it to complete their job get it first.

    Because of people like you that complained so much about the troops needing body armor Infantrymen and other combat arms troops have been fighting TWO battles. One against the enemy and one against the weight of gear. The military became too focused on body armor and tried to armor every inch of every troop to the point that we could hardly move. Body armor with front back and side plates, groin protector, arm protectors, neck protector, throat protector, lower back protector, add on to helmet to protect back of neck, etc. Guess what, we had all that stuff and wore only the bare basic vest and helmet. Sometimes not even the helmet. Stuff gets heavy on foot in the mountains chasing guys wearing pajamas with only a rifle and a mag or 3.

    Armored vehicles is another example of getting things done as quickly as possible. The threat of IED's was realized and uparmored Humvees came about. Those helped, but development continued and now the MRAP is doing it's thing and saving lives. It takes time to develop and test new equipment in the military. Nothing happens overnight.

    When a person signs up for the military, especially during a time of war, they are choosing to go where the government sends them with the gear that they get issued. You do go to war with what you got. There are a lot of battles that have been won with substandard gear. The guys about to storm Iwo Jima didn't say "whoa, whoa, whoa...I didn't sign up to do this with only a steel pot for armor. I'd like my own personal tank and one of those flak jackets the bomber crews wear before I go do this." They did what they had to do with what they had.

    Maybe before joining the military someone should look at what's in the system and decide if they are going to be comfortable on patrol using the current issue gear. There are no promises that it will be upgraded in the future. US troops should be thankful they got what they got. Other armies around the world don't have that luxury and you can expect to see that luxury of improving equipment disappear under Democrat control.

    It would be financially unsound for the military to outfit everyone with all of the best gear on the market when the vast majority of the military could deploy overseas in an orange jumpsuit with no body armor or weapon and complete their mission just the same. Problem is, that is what they are trying to do because everyone cries to mommy about not having this or that and guess what? We end up with cooks and mechanics with better rifles and gear than combat arms soldiers in some instances....how's that for backwards and a waste of funds?

    RANT OFF


    Now, back to the original topic

    Expect to see more of that type of stuff. Money was good for the military while President Bush was in office. Money for training and equipment was readily available. Don't be surprised to hear stories of guys going back to saying "bang bang" during training because there isn't money for ammo like during the Clinton years. It is very common for the military to get screwed when a Democrat is in office.


  2. #17
    Member Array troutkiller's Avatar
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    Easy, Sparky, I wasn't tryin' to stir the pot with that one. Just going by my best recollection of the time. The Rumsfeld quote is one I use all the time in my job (IT). As something of a student of history, I realize we do indeed go to war with what we got. My father wore one of those steel pots on his head at Normandy, btw. On the landing craft he manned, the only armor was plastic (bakelite, maybe?) splinter shields.

    Thanks for setting me straight on the vests. I seem to recall some parent griping to Cheney he had to buy his kid body armor and ship it over there. How long were you there? Hats off to you if you were. A lot of us appreciate the job our guys and gals do.

    edit - just saw on your profile you were 10th Mountain. Tough outfit.

  3. #18
    Member Array sparkykb's Avatar
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    Sorry, I get worked up easily when it comes to military stuff

    And to answer your question I was in Afghanistan for 16 months but never in Iraq.

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    Last weekend while traveling from Las Vegas to Southern California I stopped at a Bob's Big Boy in Baker (a small roadside town near Death Valley in the middle of the desert). There were 4 or 5 bus loads of US Army troops eating at the fast food stops in town. They were all wearing camo which seemed a little odd as the nearest active military base is the Marine Logistics center in Yermo. I asked one where they were heading and he said Denver. I then asked him where they originated from and he said a base in Northern California. When I asked why the Army didn't just fly them to Denver he just shrugged his shoulders and got back on the bus.
    Is this really how we treat our solders now? The Government wants to give everybody free contraceptives but doesn't have a problem making these kids do a 3 day bus ride!
    But wait, there's more..........
    I just got off the phone with my nephew who is a Navy Corpsman, he recently was assigned to SOCOM and just finished his SEAR training. He is shipping out to Afghanistan in 3 days and tells me he won't be getting the tricked out M4 or the Springfield 45 as they "ran out" and there is "no budget" for new ones. He will be issued the M-9 ( and I'm assuming an M-16) instead, but......they don't have enough magazines so he has to buy his own!!!!! Also, his med bag or whatever they call them now will only have about 25% of the stuff he is supposed to have when he deploys.....once again...no budget.
    This is total BS. I guess I've always assumed that our kids had the best equipment money could buy when they deployed...this was quite an eye opener.
    Real Disappointed.....
    Who is actually with in SOCOM? I am still a part time contractor for them and retired from SOCOM 6 years ago. Not dropping any flags here but I find it hard to beleive that he is deploying without his full medical equipment (unless they will square it away when he gets there). I called a buddy this morning after I saw the post and he does not know what to make of it.

    BTW: For folks that think he is a SeAL. The OP said he just finished SEAR training which I think he means SERE training. A lot of folks in and out of SOCOM get different levels of SERE training. Does not mean you are an operator.

  5. #20
    Member Array sonosam's Avatar
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    The dude is a SEAL and can't get equipment?
    Just because he is assigned to SOCOM doesn't make him a SEAL automatically. There are several other types who work at SOCOM.

    As for the lack of gear, I agree with Cold Shot. Nothing wrong with the M16. I carried one my entire time over there and had zero problems with it. The Beretta also gets the job done when needed. If it didn't it wouldn't have been in service as long as it has been.

    I, too, think the medical gear statement needs some verification. Last I knew the medics were the ones that were made 100% sure they got what they needed.

  6. #21
    Member Array sparkykb's Avatar
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    There is a lot of stuff guys get plussed up on once they get overseas. I'd imagine any equipment shortcomings will be addressed once he arrives in theater. Sometimes it is easier to outfit incoming units as they arrive instead of trying to get stuff to everyone stateside. Plus it's less stuff to pack over there.

  7. #22
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    I was refraining from weighing in but will do in light of the lack of full information and the propensity for Soldier (Sailors, Marines, etc.) to exaggerate the issues. I know of almost no servicemember who believes he or she has all they need/should have. It it what it is. That said, I've served in all kinds of conventional and other kinds of units and organizations and I can tell you unequivocally we did not have shortages of needed equipment. Heck, even during the "ammo shortages" in Iraq in '04 my unit had all it needed and could use. Daily training ammo and missions were. Kt impacted in the least. Insofar as medical supplies are concerned USSOCOM have not been shorted unless it was a systemic availability issue as oppose to a fiscal one.

  8. #23
    Ex Member Array NotMallNinja's Avatar
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    Please excuse iPhone typos!

  9. #24
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    In the early part of this war a soldier asked a question to Donald Rumsfeld, why they did not have modern technology and weapons and armor plated protection on our trucks on the battlefield, and his answer was we go to war with what we have not with what we want. Do you remember when this war started soldiers were writing home asking their parents to send them optics for the rifles because they were not available to all the soldiers they did not have enough. We all know what our government thinks of our military soldiers, so why should this surprise you. The only way it will ever change is by placing people in Washington who actually give a damn and want to do good for their country and not fill up their pockets with money and take care of their friends. You should look up how many millions of dollars we give other countries for their military, it is disgusting how our government treats or soldiers and the bottom line is we let it happen and we act like there is nothing we can do and the government knows they can get away with it, why because they know the people of United States no longer stand up for what is right and the few little groups that do get crushed and put on a radical list of anti-American people they are using scare tactics so people do not oppose them, maybe they will eventually outsource or military to other countries like everything else in this country
    Doodle likes this.

  10. #25
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    I want only the best for our military.

    But I cannot think of a time in history that anybody had what they needed. We did more with less. That's just what we did and have always done.

    I remember having vietnam-era Colts that were falling apart, M16's that key-holed the targets (we were told that tumbling was a good thing), I often paid for my own transportation so that I didn't have to wait for C-130's, buses and trains that would have taken me two days longer. The food sucked, my chief was mean to us, we never got enough sleep, and didn't get paid much.

    Apparently our recruiter lied to us.
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  11. #26
    Member Array FLArmadillo's Avatar
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    The little I can add to this is logistical thinking.

    Where are your bullets, beans, and bandages? They follow troops in combat.

    Why would you take supplies away from the combat zone, pay to put them on a plane (taking up space/ fuel), fly them stateside, have it take up space and degrade in a warehouse, hand it to a serviceman about to deploy, and fly it back to the same AO (taking up more space and fuel)?

    Or would you wait until the soldier gets to where they will be serving and hand it to them?
    As we used to teach in the spook business, carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it you may shoot it. If you shoot it you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody - and he finds out about it - he may be very angry with you. -- Jeff Cooper

  12. #27
    Ex Member Array NotMallNinja's Avatar
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    I've spent time in many high level (Secretarial, ORHA, CPA, etc.) meetings and not once were equipment issues shuttled to the side. When a cook writes mommy about his "need" for an ACOG I dismiss it. When a trigger puller does it I take it with a small grain go salt though less so. Engagements at this time (of your quote of Rumsfeld) were not so far out as to require such optics. Soldiers have always "needed" what they want and not really what was necessary to do the job. I've never heard of a perfectly content Soldier (Sailor, Marine, etc).

    With respect to going to war with what you have that wasn't a flippant or erroneous comment - it is how all governments work. I cannot count how many times people here say similar things with respect to their personal gear and training proficiency. As a Soldier I appreciate your sentiment and fervor but it is not entirely an accurate reflection of reality. Insofar as the remainder I refrain from political commentary on our government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jdp751 View Post
    In the early part of this war a soldier asked a question to Donald Rumsfeld, why they did not have modern technology and weapons and armor plated protection on our trucks on the battlefield, and his answer was we go to war with what we have not with what we want. Do you remember when this war started soldiers were writing home asking their parents to send them optics for the rifles because they were not available to all the soldiers they did not have enough. We all know what our government thinks of our military soldiers, so why should this surprise you. The only way it will ever change is by placing people in Washington who actually give a damn and want to do good for their country and not fill up their pockets with money and take care of their friends. You should look up how many millions of dollars we give other countries for their military, it is disgusting how our government treats or soldiers and the bottom line is we let it happen and we act like there is nothing we can do and the government knows they can get away with it, why because they know the people of United States no longer stand up for what is right and the few little groups that do get crushed and put on a radical list of anti-American people they are using scare tactics so people do not oppose them, maybe they will eventually outsource or military to other countries like everything else in this country
    sparkykb and Secret Spuk like this.

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array NH_Esau's Avatar
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    This is nothing new unfortunately, and I can list too many buds who are dead or hurt from peacetime and wartime incidents that have funding priorities as the root cause (which in-turn led to acquisition, equipment quality, and logistic failures).

    Now I'm about as big a right-wing nut as you can find, and I do think that the left has less regard than the right... in general. But, the bottom line is this:
    - Less than 1% currently serving in military
    - Less than 10% formerly served
    - Figure another 15% close enough to active/vets and maybe another 5% of Johnny/Janie Q Publics who really care and do something effective about it
    - Remaining 70% don't care, regardless of what they say, unless if affects their wallets

    I don't think taxes are the answer to our fiscal woes, but I do believe we need an itemized war tax that hits across the board that pays for 100% of the true costs of all deployments outside our borders (including garrisons), and on your paystub and tax documents it should say:
    $XX - War in A
    $XX - War in B
    $XX - War in C
    $XX - Foreign garrisons in Europe, Africa, Asia, Australasia, South America, North America, and Maritime

    And I waffle back and forth about the draft. On one hand, I think Johnny and Janie ought to have their soft butts on the line. On the other hand, I wouldn't want their soft butts tumbling over the side of the troop seat next to me and into my lap, and figure the younger Spartans currently on the pointy end would want to be dragging today's foppish Athenians across the dust either.

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Oh boy am I going to get flamed for this. (and remember I started out like everyone else in the army). The simple fact is everybody wants the equipment the 'cool guys' have. Even before Desert Storm 1 and even Grenada. I remember back when I was at Ft. Devens in 1984. The 10th group guys had the new Gortex jackets and poly pro under garments while we all still had the field jackets that seemed to soak up rain or the poncho. We all complained what made them so special. Well, they actually go out in the bad weather a lot. More so than students and cadre at the Intelligence school. Cooks, suppply sergeants, et al did not have a pressing need for the stuff. Well, after a few years the combat arms units started to get them, then combat support, Finally years later TDA units strated to get them. That is the way it works.

    I am not talking about body armor in a combat zone. I want to make that clear.

  15. #30
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    Buses never killed anyone from sitting for a couple days...they wont get anything that good in the future and it is inexpensive to move people by bus. It wasn't that long ago I would have welcomed a trip on a bus over a deuce so its not hardship duty.

    As for the gear, I carried an M9 and now own 2 of them. I had the M16A3 and now I own an M4. both are combat effective weapons and there is nothing wrong with carrying either one into the fight. the med kit, will probably be swapped out, or re-supplied when he gets in theater by the personnel he is relieving. I wouldn't get all worked up about it, the goods are going to our boys who need them. Not to men getting ready to go.

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